$22 - Jacks, I don't know what to do

[pergesu]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 (t355)
MP2 (t1520)
CO (t1105)
Button (t1040)
SB (t820)
Hero (t1890)
UTG (t1270)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t650) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t325</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button pushes</font>, Hero folds


I considered shoving preflop with the dead money, but decided that my stack was so big it wasn't worth gambling vs two overcards if called. I could get away from a bad flop, or stack one or both of them on a good one.

There was also the chance that button was trapping, which I thought was probably the case when he shoved. Two hands later he reraised all-in preflop with 77 which made me think it was more likely he had a big hand here.

[RobGW]

Not pushing PF is a big mistake imo. Let's go through the scenarios:
If they both fold you pick up $450.
If UTG calls and button folds: The pot will be 2690 and its costing you 1070 chips. You only need to win this 29% of the time to breakeven.
If UTG fold and button calls: The pot is 2230 and it costs you 840. You only need to win this 27%.
If they both call: Pot will be 3530 and it costs you 1070. You only need to win this 23%.

I'd say you have some FE and even if you are called you are likely going to be way ahead of the pot odds your getting.

[Freudian]

I think your line is fine. I think pushing preflop is fine also.

[Bluff Daddy]

I would also push pf, so many players minraise with a huge range of hands I think its best to push.

[pergesu]

If button doesn't call, I push no doubt. I was really put off by his cold call though.

[Bluff Daddy]

what hands do you think hes cold calling with here?

[pergesu]

I really don't know, because it's a 22 and it could be anything. I realize that that makes raising the obvious play...there was just something unsettling about his call. Seriously, I looked at the screen and said "what the [censored]?" out loud. It just didn't fit, and I wanted to be cautious from that point on.

[Paul Thomson]

I'm not to sure about your line. I think if your going to fold this flop, then you should have folded pre-flop. This is an AMAZING flop for your hand. The texture of the flop is great--there are no flush draws out, a pair on board, much lower cards, cards that don't fit into your opponents hands.

What do you put your opponents on? It's hard for me to imagine the button having QQ or KK because it would have been a big mistake for him to let you in so cheap preflop. I think slow-playing aces in that position is dangerous also given that there is such a large pot preflop. I'm puting the button on a medium pair and one smaller than you. Now the UTG player could have you beat but his flop bet could simply represent a continuation bet. And if you call the Buttons all-in, it will represent huge strength (since you could possibly even have a 3 given the preflop action, then the UTG player is going to need a monster hand to risk the rest of his tournament in the face of all that strength (one guy can bluff but two can't).

Given all that, I can see why you folded the flop and played it the way you did. You are in good position as the chip leader and don't want to risk crippling your stack at this time in the tournament. But if you win this hand, your going to own the table and be in serious position to take it down. It's hard for me to analyze these risk vs reward situations (i'll leave that to eastbay and gigabet). But given the situation, I think calling is worth it.

But given your cution when calling preflop and on the flop, what situation would you need to call. Hypothetically speaking, if the button folds on the flop, do you push all-in against the UTG player?

[splashpot]

I think the button's cold call is even more reason to push preflop. Players at the $22s will min-raise with almost anything, but they will also cold call min-raises with almost anything. The button's call just makes the pot bigger in my eyes. It doesn't resemble strength at all. I'd push and expect them both to fold. Then you pick up a nice pot.

[pergesu]

I'm not worried about UTG's hand really. If Button folds, I c/r all-in with the quickness.

As far as the button goes, I didn't know what range to put him on preflop. As I think I said in an earlier post, that should make me more inclined to push..

Anyway I figured I was probably good, but there was a chance he was trapping. I opted to check on the flop, knowing that UTG would probably CB and then Button would reveal the strength of his hand. If he folds/calls I can shove, if he shoves I can fold.

This is of course the ideal flop for my hand, behind flopping a set. I just didn't have enough information about where I stood to make a decision for half my stack...and was hoping they'd let me know.

As it turns out I ended up pushing preflop with JJ two hands later, KK the next hand, and totally dominated the table the rest of the way. So perhaps that's why I'm not placing a ton of importance on this particular hand and my action - which may be a big leak.

[freemoney]

FOLDING IS ICKY
ur ahead 95% of time

[Hendricks433]

I dont like when the justification is saying you only need to win X% of the time to breakeven cause its a tourney. I think thats different than in a cash game. One mistake and it could cost you not making any money at all. It does suck he reraised all in on the flop and its extremely hard to call this. I think your ahead a huge % of the time but in these 800 chip tourneys you need all the chips you can get for bubble time and I think you can wait to make a better play. I still push pf /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GtrHtr]

This is a very difficult hand to play oop. I think your line was fine and I lean more that way than pushing PF. Not being able to put your villains on a hand makes this an even easier fold on the flop. FWIW, I'd raise 3xBB from UTG with TT+ and AK, although I push the same hands PF as well if I read the table as weak/tight.

[pooh74]

I don't think button is trapping here most of the time. Its a bad trap if he is! If UTG had raised to T350-400 then a cold call from button might set off some alarms in my mind...but calling a minraise in position usually will be a PP or something. and 66-TT are more likely here then QQ-AA.

I dunno...I would personally push PF but I think you played it fine too. I could go on about why I dont think button us trapping but maybe thats off topic a bit...it also depends whether he is a "good" player or not...

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the button's cold call is even more reason to push preflop. Players at the $22s will min-raise with almost anything, but they will also cold call min-raises with almost anything. The button's call just makes the pot bigger in my eyes. It doesn't resemble strength at all. I'd push and expect them both to fold. Then you pick up a nice pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I'm pushing this 100% of the time preflop.