KK in a big pot and a scary flop

[private joker]

Live 15/30. Early in my session, so no reads. But the Button in this hand appeared to be a non-retard from what little I've seen of him. He's a 50-ish, clean-cut Asian man who never makes eye contact with anyone and doesn't talk.

A few players limp, and the Button raises. I pick up black Kings in the BB and make it 3-bets. Everyone calls, Button caps, everyone calls.

4-5 to the flop for 16-20 small bets. (Forget the exact number of players, but it's not particularly relevant in this hand).

The flop comes down A44 with 2 spades. I check to see what develops. If there's a bet and a raise to me, I'll consider dropping; if just the Button bets, I intend to check-raise and see how the field reacts. So it gets checked around!

The turn brings the 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Now I bet out with my nut flush draw, get one caller, and now the Button raises!

Ai-ya! What do I do? Did he flop a boat? Is he FOS? Does he just have ace-face?

Obviously I'm not folding, but a spade doesn't make me the nuts. I will play a spade river somewhat cautiously if I hit it. So what do you do -- I assume a turn call is in order, and not a 3-bet, correct? On the river, if it's a non-spade, are you check-calling or check-folding? If it's a spade, are you bet/calling, check-raising, or what...

[private joker]

I should add that my thinking at the time was: either he has AA and I'm dead, or he has QQ and he's dead. (That is, he'd bet a flop with AK/AQ/AJs, but check with AA/QQ/JJ, but feel free to disagree). If it's that much a WA/WB, maybe I shouldn't be doing any raising, check-raising, or betting -- but I'd also love to fold out some hands; I can see a weak A mucking somewhere in this pot if the action gets heated.

[Nick C]

I would call the turn raise, but I think there's a very good chance you're drawing dead. I guess we're kind of hoping for a hand like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif at this point. Or we're hoping Button just has AK. But, generally speaking, I think players are going to be less inclined to check behind on the flop with AK than they are with AA, and they're also going to be less inclined to cap preflop with AK.

If I improved on the river, I'd probably just check-call (even on a king). On a spade, I kind of want to bet-fold, except that I am worried Button will raise if he does have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

i dont really like a check o nthe flop with so many people...if you get raised on the flop u can be sure youre beat and throw it away but now you dont know where youre at. people have to credit it you with a big hand to 3 bet preflop and bet out again on the flop from EP...youd know you were beat if you got raised again on the flop.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I have to say with your read combined with the super wierd action he has AA here or is crazy.

[bobhalford]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont really like a check o nthe flop with so many people...if you get raised on the flop u can be sure youre beat and throw it away but now you dont know where youre at. people have to credit it you with a big hand to 3 bet preflop and bet out again on the flop from EP...youd know you were beat if you got raised again on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I would bet/fold the flop. I might bet/call because of the flush draw possibility...though if it's the button that raises, I might throw it away because you only beat pocket pairs lower than yours. Drawing dead to 3 outs (2 kings and the backdoor flush) is a 15-1 shot, and your equity is no longer good enough to continue.

[KDawgCometh]

honestly, considering the action on the flop, a turn CR might not be a bad idea. It is possible that the button is doing this with QQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif thinking that his 2nd nut flush draw might be good. THe flush draw and that many players makes slow playing trip aces not really the best idea.

The only hand that I can see being played like this is quads, but really that wouldn't make too much sense either, cause with that many people in on the flop a bet will be called by a couple of people.

I'd call the raise and check/call any river(and CR the river if you hit a K)

[SNOWBALL138]

I call and then fold to a non spade non K river.

I bet/call any spade or K river.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I call and then fold to a non spade non K river.

I bet/call any spade or K river.

[/ QUOTE ]

One problem we have on a king river, I think, is that in terms of combos, AK and AA would then be equally likely for Villain (with 3 combos each). But I think the action up until this point is more indicative of AA.

Betting might be the only way to get paid off by Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Qx, though, if Villain happens to have that and will call a bet.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I just don't agree with the reasoning in this thread based on joker's read, at all. A nitty older asian guy isn't capping preflop with AK and giving a free card in a multiway pot with a 2flush, ever. So I completely remove all Ax hands.

Then you bet the turn and he raises AFTER someone else called AND a 3rd flush card hit. Since there no made flush hand a nitty guy can have here the only hand that's left is AA so it's a fold. If there was another read on the asian guy then clearly I would never be folding here, but come on....why even bother making reads if you're just going to ignore them everytime you don't want to fold with a pretty hand?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
if just the Button bets, I intend to check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this plan. What is the point of check raising this flop?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if just the Button bets, I intend to check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this plan. What is the point of check raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, sir. If I'm WA/WB with KK on an A44 flop, c/r'ing is foolish.

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if just the Button bets, I intend to check-raise

[/ QUOTE ] I don't like this plan. What is the point of check raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]You are correct, sir. If I'm WA/WB with KK on an A44 flop, c/r'ing is foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]I somewhat disagree. Joker did not give enough information about the Button. Check-raising a Rockish type would be silly, but if he is the "always bets when checked to" type, a check-raise is superb. This will bring bring out any spade draws as well as the slim chance of folding a weak ace.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont really like a check o nthe flop with so many people...if you get raised on the flop u can be sure youre beat and throw it away but now you dont know where youre at. people have to credit it you with a big hand to 3 bet preflop and bet out again on the flop from EP...youd know you were beat if you got raised again on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he gets raised on the flop, he has odds to chase a 2-outer.

-d

[flopmonster]

I'd say its about 75% he has AA here but nothing is ever a sure thing. I would chk/call any k or sp river.