View Full Version : hand from session reiview
Guruman
11-05-2005, 01:50 PM
Adsman reviewed this session, and we seem to disagree about how to approach this turn. Hero is in the cutoff at absolute 6max 1/2.
>Dealt to <font color="BLUE">HERO</font> [A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
>UTG - Folds
><font color="BLUE">HERO</font> - Raises $2 to $2
>BUTTON- Raises $3 to $3
>SB - Folds
>UTG - Folds
><font color="BLUE">HERO</font> - Calls $1
>*** FLOP *** [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
><font color="BLUE">HERO</font> - Checks
>BUTTON- Bets $1
><font color="BLUE">HERO</font> - Calls $1
>*** TURN *** [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif] [9/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
><font color="BLUE">HERO...</font>
...soooo
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
KaiShin
11-05-2005, 01:54 PM
I'm thinking I would rather go for a CR here and call a possible 3-bet than bet/3-bet and face a possible turn cap.
nomadtla
11-05-2005, 01:57 PM
I like C/R/C because I don't know that I want the turn capped but I think we're good pretty offten. But if he still 3-bets our C/R I start to worry about AK. B/c is how I play the river if 3 bet on the turn (unless the river is a 9)
WordWhiz
11-05-2005, 02:06 PM
Grunch: Check raise, then bet the river. This is my standard line with a monster against an opponent who has bet into me on the flop. And HU, two pair is a monster.
Disconnected
11-05-2005, 02:16 PM
I'd checkraise this, and call a 3-bet. If you bet and are raised, I'm not comfortable that I'm ahead enough to make me feel good about a 3-bet. If you bet and are ahead, you may only get a call from him anyway. OTOH, if he's got AQ or AJ, he'll pay off your checkraise. If he's got a lower PP, he would probably be folding to a bet anyway.
When you said lead out to protect, what are you protecting from?
Aaron W.
11-05-2005, 02:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
[/ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?
What hands does villain 3-bet preflop and raise on the flop that won't bet the turn in position?
Guruman
11-05-2005, 02:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When you said lead out to protect, what are you protecting from?
[/ QUOTE ]
by going for the checkraise, I give hands like AQ, AJ, and QQ-99 a chance to take a free card and improve to beat my aces up.
nomadtla
11-05-2005, 02:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you said lead out to protect, what are you protecting from?
[/ QUOTE ]
by going for the checkraise, I give hands like AQ, AJ, and QQ-99 a chance to take a free card and improve to beat my aces up.
[/ QUOTE ]
In 6-max are any of these hands (except maybe QQ-TT) not betting this turn. I don't play 6-max but I think all those hands are still betting this turn.
Guruman
11-05-2005, 02:37 PM
I'm with ya. What's our plan if the turn checks through?
nomadtla
11-05-2005, 02:53 PM
I think I go bet/3bet/call with anything that's not Q,J, or T (because I don't see AK checking this turn behind so I'm not worried about that anymore, but any Q,J, or T worries me then cause he was probably looking for one of those if he ckecked through that turn). And Bet/call with any of those on the river.
Goodnews
11-05-2005, 02:59 PM
Lead out, not to protect but to throw off opponent.
Anyways, given the pf action and no read, we will have to assume Button has AK (12 ways), AQ (12 ways), AJ (12 ways), AT (12 ways), AA (3 ways), KK (6 ways), QQ (6 ways), JJ (6 ways), TT (6 ways) KQs (4 ways). A total of 85 possible hands.
After examining the flop and turn, the hands that can beat us at the turn are AA (1 way), KK (3 ways) and AK (6 ways). Our total number of combinations also changes
QQ-TT are a total of 18 ways, AQ-AT are a total of 24 ways. A total of 52 combinations.
We are also in danger of TT, JJ, QQ, AT, AJ, and AQ drawing out on us. Which is calculated to be
(6/52*.04=.46% [for every pocket pair] and .92% [for every hand AQ-AT]). We get raised on the river if opponent draws out on us.
Situation 1: We lead
We also assume that the Button will call 80% of the time and raise 20% (of this we are beat 60% of the time, since villain will raise if he has any of the above hands). Where if raised we call down regardless of river (for simplicitys sake).
=EV
=8.25BB*0.8+10.25BB*0.08-10.25BB*0.12-10.25BB*.0046-10.25BB*.0092
=+5.32BB
Situation 2: We Check-Raise
We assume that Button will call 65% of check-raises, and will 3-bet only when he has top two pair or a set and we pay off, this will occur 13% (=60%*10/52) of the time, and will fold the rest.
=EV
=10.25BB*.65+7.25*.22-12.25*.13-12.25BB*.0046-12.25BB*.0092
=+6.49595
Check-raise is more than 1BB more profitable than leading out.
nomadtla
11-05-2005, 03:02 PM
Edited cause I'm a dummy who responded before I read the rest of your post. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
[/ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?
What hands does villain 3-bet preflop and raise on the flop that won't bet the turn in position?
[/ QUOTE ]
How about a PP<KK that took a stab on the flop?
Aaron W.
11-05-2005, 03:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
[/ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?
What hands does villain 3-bet preflop and raise on the flop that won't bet the turn in position?
[/ QUOTE ]
How about a PP<KK that took a stab on the flop?
[/ QUOTE ]
It it was a stab, is he paying you off when you bet the turn? And if he takes a free card, how many outs does he have? Should you worry about it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
[/ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?
What hands does villain 3-bet preflop and raise on the flop that won't bet the turn in position?
[/ QUOTE ]
How about a PP<KK that took a stab on the flop?
[/ QUOTE ]
It it was a stab, is he paying you off when you bet the turn? And if he takes a free card, how many outs does he have? Should you worry about it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Good points.
nomadtla
11-05-2005, 03:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for the checkraise or lead out to protect?
[/ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?
What hands does villain 3-bet preflop and raise on the flop that won't bet the turn in position?
[/ QUOTE ]
How about a PP<KK that took a stab on the flop?
[/ QUOTE ]
It it was a stab, is he paying you off when you bet the turn? And if he takes a free card, how many outs does he have? Should you worry about it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Good points.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then he may be more likely to make a crying call on the river with those hands if he thinks you'd take a stab since he checked the river through if he doesn't improve on the river.
adsman
11-05-2005, 04:47 PM
My argument was this. On the flop we are taking a WA/WB line since if villian has a pocket pair lower than KK or is going stupid we want him to keep betting, and if we are behind we lose the least. Standard. But on the turn we improve to Aces up which is a fantastic hand HU at 6max. So a WA/WB line no longer counts.
A turn check-raise screams 'you're screwed' to villan. A donk bet could seem just that - a donk bet. An added advantage of betting out is that we don't give free cards to those lower pocket pairs, (villan did 3 bet preflop don't forget), and it would truly suck if he checked behind here.
The consensus seems to be for going for the check-raise but from the arguments put forward I still prefer donking this on the Turn.
McGahee
11-05-2005, 06:42 PM
I'm going to take the "read dependant" easy way out. Really it depends on whether or not he's capable of a re-steal. If he is, I'll C/R. If not, bet/call.
yep definitely checkraise here
if 3bet call down
if called lead river
Thanks for the ida Goodnews, anyone that missed it should definitely read through it
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