Does anyone have the details on the Tiffany KJs hand?

[betgo]

I know Shiek raised with AA, Tiffany reraised with KJs, Shiek pushed, and Tiffany thought until she timed out. I was presented on TV that Tiffany did not know what she was doing, and that is probably correct. However, there are situations where she could consider calling.

If the initial raise was from very late position and/or she was getting significant pot odds, there might be reason to consider calling. Although Tiffany was probably capable of reraising with KJs in many situations, a late position raise would make the reraise natural and explain why she was considering calling the push.

Also, in the WPT forum, people were saying that Shiek should have made a smaller 3rd raise rather than pushing with AA. I wonder if the stack sizes neccessitated a push. If so, Tiffany may have been significantly pot committed, which would explain her long contemplation.

I am wondering what the players' positions were and what there stack sizes and bet sizes were.

[betgo]

OK I'll reply to myself.


From a post by Gary Stevenson on the WPT forum.
[ QUOTE ]
the shiek had over 2 mil, he raised to 100k she reraised to 250k, not sure how much more she had to call though. I think she was around 1 mil at that point...

[/ QUOTE ]

If she started the hand with 1M, she was calling 750K to win 1350K including blinds and antes. So she was getting 1.8-1 pot odds to call. Therefore folding KJs was not the no-brainer it appeared to be on TV.

A) Why is this here?
B) Why did she reraise with KJs?
C) 1.8:1 isn't enough when your opponent's range is KK+

[Exitonly]

KJs v. QQ+,AKs,AKo

is like a 3:1 underdog.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
A) Why is this here?
B) Why did she reraise with KJs?
C) 1.8:1 isn't enough when your opponent's range is KK+

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Because I don't get intelligent replies to strategy questions on the WPT forum. This was an attempt of mine to discuss Tiffany's strategy and look what is degenerated into. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3850441&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)

2. She was presumably restealing. She also wanted to create big preflop action because she was outclassed. It is also possible that she was a fish who overplayed 2 face cards.

3. That's why I asked what position Shiek was raising from in this situation. If Shiek's range to push was KK+, then reraising with KJs was an excellent play. My range to push with be a lot less than KK+ against a loose reraiser in this situation.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
KJs v. QQ+,AKs,AKo

is like a 3:1 underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

KJs is about even against 22-TT, less than a 3-1 underdog to AQo, and slightly behind Axo.

That's why I asked what position Shiek raised from. That effects his range to push a lot. Also, was Shiek viewd as a LAG? Presumably Tiffany had an image as both an aggressive restealer and a loose fish. These factors could effect Shiek's range to push.

[betgo]

In a thread in the WPT forum, Tiffany mentioned that someone had put in a third raise allin earlier and after she folded shown 64o. As an inexperienced player she may have overreacted to that and not understood her opponent's purpose in showing. This may also indicate that players did not respect her reraises, apparently with good reason. She may have had reason to believe that Shiek's raise was greater than AK, QQ-AA, and given KJs is pretty even with a lot of decent hands and the pot odds, it might not been that easy a fold.

I am just curious as to the whole situation with this hand. It is presented on TV as fish/bitch takes forever to make obvious laydown, but it may not be that simple.

Some of her overbet pushes at early position raisers seem like worse plays, although she won the hands and was trying to play aggressively and avoid postflop play. The 20xpot reraise allin with AQo vs. KK and the 6xpot push with A7o versus QQ were definately EV- plays.

If she was on a steal, why did she take so long to fold?

Honestly, I think she just thought KJs looked pretty and decided it was good enough to reraise with. Some of her other plays show that probably some of the factors you're talking about never occured to her.

I think you're reading too much into this. Any reasonable range you can put Shiek on has her not getting nearly the odds she needs to call. I really don't think there's much of interest in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, in the WPT forum, people were saying that Shiek should have made a smaller 3rd raise rather than pushing with AA. I wonder if the stack sizes neccessitated a push. If so, Tiffany may have been significantly pot committed, which would explain her long contemplation.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was third to act. I don't remember how many they where at the table but both UTG and UTG+1 folded.

I know it wasn't you that said what I quoted here but this sure is interesting. From what I have seen Tiffany doing in the WPT ME I am not impressed at all and to be honest, I have no idea how she got this far. Calling an all in with A7 vs QQ. She got lucky and won that, so I guess that's the way she made it this far. Anyho... A good player like Sheik have probably catch up on things like this and when she re-raise his bet, he pushes because she can call this with marginal hands (we all saw how close it was that she called with KJ...) and therefor I think the push here is correct 10 out of 10 times. If she had an Ace like AJ, A10 and A9 I think she would throw the chips in. Nice push by Sheik that unfortunately didn't get rewarded.

[KneeCo]

Slightly OT question about this hand (sorry if this has been talked about, I just now watched the episodes so haven't been following the threads previously).

Did she make a phone call during the hand? It looked like she was on the phone when she walked away from the table.
And a followup, if so, what the ****?!?!?

Nah she just had her hand on her ear and you can see that there is no phone when she pulls back her hand. I have no idea why she walked back there tho, maybe to ask a friend?

[betgo]

Yeah, I was kind of playing devil's advocate and stirring up some discussion.

Two years ago, they showed Brunson calling allin preflop with K9o and losing to AKo at the ME. Now you know Doyle had pot odds to call and had a reason for raising or reraising with K9o.

Tiffany probably saw two face cards, a suited gapper, and thought that looked awfully pretty.

Her technical play was terrible, and her reads were pretty bad. However, her strategic play was much better. Also, she seemed to have courage and played tight/aggressive.

[CardSharpCook]

I love that they show her though. It lets people watch her play and say, "OMG if that FISH is in the top 50 of 6K!!! I can bet her! I should play more poker."

[JustPlayingSmart]

When I watched that hand the 2nd time, I think they said Sheik had around 2 million in chips, so Tiffany would have been calling her whole stack (this was before her doubling up Raymer).

In the holdem or foldem that episode, Sheik raises to 90k, the hero of the commercial repops to 200k with AK, and Sheik moves in. Hero folds and Sheik has AA.

In this hand, Sheik goes to 100k I think, Tiffany to 250k, which is a pretty small reraise. There would be several reasons to move in with AA here.

1) Tiffany raises pretty small (just like the AK guy did), so Sheik thinks they are stronger than they actually are, since those small reraises are usually made with absolute monsters (QQ-AA).

2) Sheik already knows about Tiffany from playing with her or hearing about her, and has no respect for her ability to lay down a hand.

3) Sheik thinks by moving in, his opponents will be less likely to put him on aces.

Now, if Sheik did have 2 million, and went to like 600k against Tiffany, I think it's somewhat likely she moves in, thinking she still has fold equity, and Sheik gets the result he wants. But I'm sure Sheik thought she had more hand than KsJs.