stop n gos....ineffective?

[johnnybeef]

I don't use stop n gos too often, but the last several times i have done one I have noticed that I am getting called with hands like Ace and King high. I'm curious if everyone else here is finding out that perhaps stop n gos are such a widely known move that they are no longer effective.

[kyro]

Not really adding much here except to back up your claim and that I have noticed this much more often as well. They're onto us.

[Hendricks433]

I get insta called almost everytime with all sorts of hands. Im about done using it unless I have like a PP and want to try and get someone off a copuple missed high cards

[Exitonly]

thats why you (we) have to startt leading out into preflop raisers.. probe bets/Stop and gos look obvious now, so have to lead into them for value.

[Freudian]

I think most of the time it is easy to put you on a hand that is unrelated to the flop, ie a random hand that most likely missed the flop. So with the pot odds a call is right.

I know I sniff out stop'n go's a lot simply because the other guy with that kind of stack in that stage of the tournament would check to me if he hit the flop. Why would a solid player just call preflop and push postflop? The M.O of a solid player is to push or fold. When he diverges from that pattern it means something. Here it means the good old stop'n go

That said, I find them to work pretty well when you have a decent amount of chips simply because people don't want to risk 1000 chips when they also miss the flop. Afterall I could attempt the stop'n go with a pair of fives and be ahead of him.

[kyro]

This is fairly vague, IMO. When do you think we should be doing this? In the same situation when we'd normally use a SnG or just in general?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
thats why you (we) have to startt leading out into preflop raisers.. probe bets/Stop and gos look obvious now, so have to lead into them for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, as a matter of fact, the ones that i made were value bets and have gotten called with garbage.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I get insta called almost everytime with all sorts of hands. Im about done using it unless I have like a PP and want to try and get someone off a copuple missed high cards

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if you read raymers post in which he coins the phrase "stop n go" this is essentially what he says.

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Three main things for the stop-and-go (at the least the all-in version). First, your hand is too good to fold preflop for the conditions. Second, if you reraise preflop it won't be enough to make them fold. Third, if you bet the flop it will be enough to make them fold if they miss.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of the stop n go is that it just has to work greater than 0% of the time to be +EV. If nobody ever folds, then it's even money with just pushing preflop ("you have no FE preflop").

In other words, always stop n go when Raymer's conditions are satisfied because it is always at least as good as the other options.

I tried to make a thread about this but got flamed: If you have AA and 301 chips on the BB and someone raises to 300, your proper play is a stop and go. The whole point of the stop and go is to get your opponent to make an obviously incorrect fold some % of the time (even if it's (10^-42)%).

[bawcerelli]

what about the times when you want a call? check?

[TakenItEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really adding much here except to back up your claim and that I have noticed this much more often as well. They're onto us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it matters if they are. Remember one of the conditions for the stop-n-go is that they will automatically call 100% BTF. Therefore there is nothing to loose.

Example:
5 plyrs table blinds/antes: 500/1000/100=$2000 pot
you are in the sb w/$2200 left w/T7s.

You feel you need to make a move since the table is too aggressive to give you any first in vigorish oportunities.

A push gives bb ~2.5:1 making it a must call yet you know he will check a limp with a below average hand. If he has a 50% chance to fold a missed flop than you now have 25% FE that you didn't have before.

[TakenItEasy]

Sorry, I just realized that this example doesn't fit well into the STT format. I'm used to posting in the MTT forum but I think the point is still valid.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think it matters if they are. Remember one of the conditions for the stop-n-go is that they will automatically call 100% BTF. Therefore there is nothing to loose.

Example:
5 plyrs table blinds/antes: 500/1000/100=$2000 pot
you are in the sb w/$2200 left w/T7s.

You feel you need to make a move since the table is too aggressive to give you any first in vigorish oportunities.

A push gives bb ~2.5:1 making it a must call yet you know he will check a limp with a below average hand. If he has a 50% chance to fold a missed flop than you now have 25% FE that you didn't have before.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is one of those cases where it almost never work though. Sure it is nice the few times that it does.

I think the potency of the move close to nil unless you have enough chips on the flop to be able to make the opponent doubt that you are automatically pushing. The basic assumptions still apply. You want to have a hand you want to play and you know he will miss the flop often enough.

A good spot for stop'n go is if you are in BB with 6xBB and button minraises you. You call with 66 and push all flops. It is much less obvious than the panic stop'n go. Of course if you think there is a big chance he will fold preflop, a resteal is order and a fold preflop might also be the correct play.

They work sometimes. Often you get called, but it's just to drum up a little fold equity. It's what you use when you are out of options.

They do work on occasion though.


PokerStars Game #2975739494: Tournament #14688672, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/04 - 23:32:09 (ET)
Table '14688672 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: boroguy (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: Fosseway (4040 in chips)
Seat 7: Kubisiak5 (3915 in chips)
Seat 8: nextup987 (2235 in chips)
Seat 9: oznol (1810 in chips)
boroguy: posts the ante 25
Fosseway: posts the ante 25
Kubisiak5: posts the ante 25
nextup987: posts the ante 25
oznol: posts the ante 25
nextup987: posts small blind 200
oznol: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to oznol [Th 8h]
boroguy: folds
Fosseway: folds
Kubisiak5: raises 600 to 1000
nextup987: folds
oznol: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [4d Qd Ks]
oznol: bets 785 and is all-in
Kubisiak5: folds
Kubisiak5 said, "9's"
Kubisiak5 said, "spit"
oznol collected 2325 from pot
Fosseway said, "Nice play oz"
oznol: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2325 | Rake 0
Board [4d Qd Ks]
Seat 1: boroguy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Fosseway folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Kubisiak5 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: nextup987 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: oznol (big blind) collected (2325)

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
They work sometimes. Often you get called, but it's just to drum up a little fold equity. It's what you use when you are out of options.

They do work on occasion though.


PokerStars Game #2975739494: Tournament #14688672, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/04 - 23:32:09 (ET)
Table '14688672 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: boroguy (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: Fosseway (4040 in chips)
Seat 7: Kubisiak5 (3915 in chips)
Seat 8: nextup987 (2235 in chips)
Seat 9: oznol (1810 in chips)
boroguy: posts the ante 25
Fosseway: posts the ante 25
Kubisiak5: posts the ante 25
nextup987: posts the ante 25
oznol: posts the ante 25
nextup987: posts small blind 200
oznol: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to oznol [Th 8h]
boroguy: folds
Fosseway: folds
Kubisiak5: raises 600 to 1000
nextup987: folds
oznol: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [4d Qd Ks]
oznol: bets 785 and is all-in
Kubisiak5: folds
Kubisiak5 said, "9's"
Kubisiak5 said, "spit"
oznol collected 2325 from pot
Fosseway said, "Nice play oz"
oznol: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2325 | Rake 0
Board [4d Qd Ks]
Seat 1: boroguy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Fosseway folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Kubisiak5 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: nextup987 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: oznol (big blind) collected (2325)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a brutal spot for a stop and go.

[valenzuela]

Yesterday I stopped n goed my way deep into a MTT. Stop n go are really useful where ppl are risk averse, in SNGs that situation may come up often.
Also the concept of a stop n go aint smart because what happens when u want a call isntead of a fold on the flop?? I think in that situation u have two options:
1) check
2) bet half of ure remaining stack

Slowplaying cant really hurt when half of ure( oponent) stack is on the pot, I think slowplaying after an inicial stop n go planis more of a MTT concept where those extra chips are really useful.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]


A good spot for stop'n go is if you are in BB with 6xBB and button minraises you. You call with 66 and push all flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything here but the 66, change that to any 2 and you have my feelings on it. The stop and go is a great way to punish a miniraiser on your BB. I use it frequently in HU play.