"Big Stacks can bully around the Small Stacks" blah blah blah

[Steve]

I've heard it a million times... in a MTT you need a big stack to bully the small stacks with. I don't buy it, can someone show me one ounce of mathematical proof of this? When you are close to the money I agree (small stacks need to survive to the $$$), but early on in the tournament there is no mathematical reason for it (if the small stacks want to play scared that is their own problem, but mathematically they are not at a disadvantage).

I bring this up because of a particular tournament I went to locally that allowed UNLIMITED rebuys regardless of your stack size. Some guys immediately rebought 10 or 20 times to get a big stack to bully people with... I say that was way -EV. The value of each chip goes down as your stack gets bigger, so they were getting less and less EV for each rebuy.

[ansky451]

read here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3862512&an=0&page=0#Post 3862512)


He can't do that with a small stack.

[Steve]

[ QUOTE ]
read here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3862512&an=0&page=0#Post 3862512)

He can't do that with a small stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

well you're ITM there I mean early in the tournament

[ansky451]

Well, getting a stack early is a start, if you play decent enough it usually can last.

[ethan]

First, it should be pretty clear to you that there's a difference between having a big stack in a tournament that lets you buy it, and having it in a tournament that doesn't.

A big stack does become more relevant later in the tournament; you're correct in that. That's because you're not really bullying the short stacks early on, because they're not _that_ short in terms # of BB. The big stack gives you leeway to gamble, and people are more afraid of gambling when they can see exactly what losing will cost them. (They've invested time in the tournament, maybe they've kept up with the average stack, and they're attached to those chips they've won. Losing all of those chips at once scares them. If they money's coming up, they're even more scared of missing out.) One nice thing about a big stack early is that it gives you a greater chance of having a big stack later on.

I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for in terms of "mathematical proof".

[betgo]

In the $10 rebuy on Stars, I wouldn't try bullying with a big stack until atleast 2.5 hours in. When everyone is playing like maniacs, bullying is not a good idea. I agree that playing aggressively with a big stack is not easy early in tournaments.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard it a million times... in a MTT you need a big stack to bully the small stacks with. I don't buy it, can someone show me one ounce of mathematical proof of this? When you are close to the money I agree (small stacks need to survive to the $$$), but early on in the tournament there is no mathematical reason for it (if the small stacks want to play scared that is their own problem, but mathematically they are not at a disadvantage).

[/ QUOTE ]

in a non-rebuy, big stacks should be able to bully a ton very near the bubble, bully somewhat when you're getting close to itm, and bully only very slightly near the beginning. that's at least if everyone is playing reasonably, and they're trying maximize ROI as opposed to $/hr.



[ QUOTE ]
I bring this up because of a particular tournament I went to locally that allowed UNLIMITED rebuys regardless of your stack size. Some guys immediately rebought 10 or 20 times to get a big stack to bully people with... I say that was way -EV. The value of each chip goes down as your stack gets bigger, so they were getting less and less EV for each rebuy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i highly doubt this is a good idea. i might do it if i were playing a $5 tournament and i wanted to play something bigger.

[Steve]

[ QUOTE ]
in a non-rebuy, big stacks should be able to bully a ton very near the bubble, bully somewhat when you're getting close to itm, and bully only very slightly near the beginning. that's at least if everyone is playing reasonably, and they're trying maximize ROI as opposed to $/hr.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that makes some sense. So the advantage of the early rebuy is not in the shortrun, but in the long run as you approach ITM you will have a greater chance of being a big stack who can bully.

Because disregarding that factor, the rebuy is -EV and mathematically no one can say otherwise. If there are 1000 people in a tournament with 1000 chips each who paid $10 to get in, and they offer you the ability to buy in for $20 and get 2000 chips, from a pure math standpoint you should not take it because each chip decreases in value in a percentage payoff tournament. If everyone is an equal player your EV is probably $19.75 or so.

I want to be a high roller just so I can roll up to one of these tournaments and rebuy 627 times for giggles.