Just bragging, but this was the play of my life so far.

[ajizzle]

I was in top 7 in chips with 24 left when this hand was played.


PokerStars Game #2976170703: Tournament #14414058, Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (3000/6000) - 2005/11/05 - 00:20:04 (ET)
Table '14414058 68' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: gaven1127 (84366 in chips)
Seat 2: akjohn1 (125414 in chips)
Seat 3: cc&7 (73364 in chips)
Seat 4: jgpoker (216308 in chips)
Seat 7: BigPimp18721 (74179 in chips)
Seat 8: vtech 9000 (106205 in chips)
Seat 9: Sharp215 (192336 in chips)
gaven1127: posts the ante 300
akjohn1: posts the ante 300
cc&7: posts the ante 300
jgpoker: posts the ante 300
BigPimp18721: posts the ante 300
vtech 9000: posts the ante 300
Sharp215: posts the ante 300
cc&7: posts small blind 3000
jgpoker: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to akjohn1 [Qd Qc]
BigPimp18721: folds
vtech 9000: folds
Sharp215: raises 18000 to 24000
gaven1127: folds
vtech 9000 said, "her did the mash he did the monster mash"
akjohn1: raises 36000 to 60000
cc&7: folds
jgpoker: folds
Sharp215: calls 36000
*** FLOP *** [Ad Kd 5h]
Sharp215: checks
akjohn1: bets 20000
Sharp215: raises 20000 to 40000
BigPimp18721 said, "vtech do you mind if i ask u where abouts in cali r u"
vtech 9000 said, "cali?"
BigPimp18721 said, "calgary"
vtech 9000 said, "calgary u mean"
akjohn1: raises 25114 to 65114 and is all-in
Sharp215: calls 25114
*** TURN *** [Ad Kd 5h] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [Ad Kd 5h 7d] [5s]
vtech 9000 said, "nw"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sharp215: shows [Jd Js] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
akjohn1: shows [Qd Qc] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
akjohn1 collected 261328 from pot

[CardSharpCook]

Dude, you misplayed the hand. You reraised on the flop thinking you could get a king or a weak ace to fold. You couldn't even get JJ to fold. Your thinking was off. If you really thought you were ahead, you also misplayed this as he was drawing slim to none and you gave him an opportunity to get away from it for cheap.

So congrats. You donked it, and got very lucky.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]

So congrats. You donked it, and got very lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost an auto-muck for me, CSC, how would you play it?

I really think that dropping these is a leak, and would love some advice on it.

[ansky451]

OMG What a play!!!

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

someone wanna post a better line?

not that Im defending his, trying to patch up some leaks here.

[Punker]

When he called you, were you happy, knowing you'd trapped him into calling with JJ? I doubt it. I suspect you screamed "No!!! FINE!!! You win with your precious, unfoldable ACE RAG YOU *********ing ***** of ******ing *****"

Yes I have screamed this many times while making "the best plays of my life".

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you misplayed the hand. You reraised on the flop thinking you could get a king or a weak ace to fold. You couldn't even get JJ to fold. Your thinking was off. If you really thought you were ahead, you also misplayed this as he was drawing slim to none and you gave him an opportunity to get away from it for cheap.

So congrats. You donked it, and got very lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes poker is about everything but the cards.

[kuro]

Reraising preflop pot commits you because you end up putting in half your stack. The easiest way to play this hand is to just push preflop over the raise. If you fold out villain you still increase your stack by 33%.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
This is almost an auto-muck for me, CSC, how would you play it?

I really think that dropping these is a leak, and would love some advice on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is 130K in the pot and 65K in my stack. So, first I'm going to chastise myself for putting myself in this position, and then I am going to play the hand like I have the nuts. How do you do that? You let the villian begin to believe his 77-JJ is good by checking every street. Yes, I fully expect to lose this hand 50-60% of the time. Villian was OOP and didn't push, I don't think AK/AA/KK are out there, but I'm not getting him to fold any ace, so I might as well play to get him to get his money in if he really does have 77-JJ.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
So, first I'm going to chastise myself for putting myself in this position

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is going to happen how often over 50% of the rare times that you put yourself in this position? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

CSC, given the raise PF, you'd push your QQ, right, given that a raise would be half your stack? I think I would call, as this would give me more options post-flop. QQ is a great but dangerous hand to push, I feel.

OP, thanks for giving us an insight into the minds of those who do this. Very enlightening.


CJ

[MeanGreenTT]

I'm curious about this hand as well, seems straight forward easy for some, guess I still need learnin' /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
CSC, given the raise PF, you'd push your QQ, right, given that a raise would be half your stack? I think I would call, as this would give me more options post-flop. QQ is a great but dangerous hand to push, I feel.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's the plan, if/when, as happened here, that both scare cards fall? You put in 1/2 your stack and now consider folding, leaving 10xbb nehind?

This is a type of situation I find confusing, because a push looks like a massive overbet to some.

I've always wondered for those not thinking in terms of "M" what a push looks like to them? To them, we're pushing way too many bbs in as a bet...rambling so I'll stop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cactus Jack]

To be honest, when I see that bet with this hand in this position, I feel kind of nauseous. However, yes, I'd probably call then fold. I know that's very weak/tight, but I'm still in it. I'm very hurt, but I've still got a chance. I just hate going broke with QQ, and it happens a lot.

CJ

I like a call here.

If the OP is raising with AK, I'm not going to like the flop if overcards come. If it's checked to me, then I have to decide if the OP is slow playing the nuts, or I'm ahead. Chance are, I'm ahead, so I go all in. If OP bets the flop, I probably fold, unless I think the OP is going to make a continuation bet with any two cards.

At this stage of the tournament, I'm not worried about a donk playing A,x and calling any bet. Most players, except for the most advance, who raised with any ace (and it could happen at this stage), will push to protect their hand, so if it's checked to me after the flop, I'm going to gamble that I'm ahead.

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
When he called you, were you happy, knowing you'd trapped him into calling with JJ? I doubt it. I suspect you screamed "No!!! FINE!!! You win with your precious, unfoldable ACE RAG YOU *********ing ***** of ******ing *****"

Yes I have screamed this many times while making "the best plays of my life".

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[CardSharpCook]

I'd love to hear why OP thought he played this hand well.

[ajizzle]

Here's my reasoning.....

PF: I am in alright chip position. Probably could play a conservative game and make the final table, but I don't want that. I want top 3. So at this point, I am willing to take QQ to the felt. So the question is, how much to raise. So why did I raise to 60k. It tells the first raiser that I am committed to this hand. If he has AA or KK, so be it, if he has AK, i will race. Now this player had shown a willingness to put the chips in the pot. He played with a mentality of, "I may not always have the best hand, but I am not gonna be the one getting pushed around". Therefore, I believed that 60k was a good amount to put him to the decision. All-in or fold. When he chose option C, my read went straight to JJ or TT. Sceptics (sp?) will say that I put him on these hands because they are the only two hands he will call with that I am a big favorite against. However, my instincts are telling me one of these two hands, and I have come to learn that it is +EV to stick with my first instincts as opposed to second guessing myself.

On the flop: Now most will say that this is one of the worst flops that could come for me. However, I would be just as scared of a JT2 flop. So why do I bet 20k? It leaves me with 45k behind, and i am betting peanuts into a 130k pot. The reason I do this is to give off the impression that I am scrared of the flop. The reality of the situation is, I have no problem calling off all of my chips with two overcards here, but I wanted to see his reaction. If he busted on my bet with all of his chips, then I am leaving myself an out with 45k in chips if i re-evaluate that he has me beat. If he just calls, then I probably check behind the turn and call a bet on the river if he chooses to bet. If not, I will take a cheap showdown. But he did exactly what I expected a beginning aggressive player to do. He min-raised me. This made me confident that he had an underpair to mine (no evidence to this besides my instinctive read of course, he could have had something weird like KQo too, but I just didnt think he would play it like that). I was also sure that he would call off another 25k with the pot so big. This is why I push in. I got what I wanted in his call.

Note: The time he took to make his decision on all streets helped me make a read on the hand. When he called my re-raise Pf, he took a few seconds.

My thoughts on his thought process were this. Initially he wanted to push in, but his hand was not too strong and would not want to be crippled. Then he considered folding. Live to fight another battle. But being a $5 PStars tourney player, he couldnt let go of a big hand. There's 24 people left, and pairs dont come around that often, so the least he could do is take a flop.

On the flop, he takes a few seconds and checks. No reason for him to bet and have me fold, when i will likely bet at such a big pot. The thing is, i dont think there are very many hands that he can hold that beat me on the flop. AA or KK pushes PF, as does AK, given his previous play. AQ is unlikely, since i have QQ, but he could probably fold this and weaker A's. Same with KQo. So my read is, he has a lower pair, and I have him beat. So I take about 7 seconds and bet 20k. An unusually small amount, given how big the pot is and how much this leaves me with. So he thinks the same thing I think of his hand. I am weak. I dont have an A, and will fold to a raise. But he doesn't want to raise all my chips, in case I do have a real hand. But what gives it away for me, is that he takes a LONG time to make this decision. When he finally min-raises, I have him where I want him, but take my time before I push 25k more. He goes down to the end of his bank before he calls. I fully expected a call, and as I had thought throughout the entire hand, he had a smaller pair.

[Jurollo]

Not to sound rude, but your explanation makes the play seem even worse. If you are willing to go to the felt with QQ why not reraise all-in right there. Would you be folding to a JT2 flop due to your read that you have him on JJ or TT. I just have seen a lot of hands on here, but this explanation, coupled with the play itself has to be one of the most confusing, non sensical ones in a while.
~Justin

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the play OR the reasoning. So you directly go to JJ or TT? No you didn't. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. You should know better than to try and pinpoint y our opponent's hand. Go ahead and say "I thought JJ ORRRR TT." They're essentially the same thing. You have to take into account AA, KK, AK, and even AQ. Two of the 6 hands you dominate, two dominate you, one is a race, and one you have a decent lead, but an Ace beats you.

Like another poster said, if you were planning on going to the felt from the beginning, push all-in. If any flop comes and you go all-in, why not remove the guesswork postflop.

Bad play all around, you're looking at results.

[ajizzle]

Hey, that's why I post here. Don't want to just post "good job" everytime someone wins a tourney. I want to know what I'm doing wrong and how I can correct those mistakes.

I was just pleased with my play in the hand because I got all of his chips when he had JJ and i had QQ and the flop had an A and a K. I realize now that pushing PF would have prevented me from being put in a tough spot, but then I may not have gotten all of his chips.

[kuro]

Calling is bad preflop with QQ here because it likely ends up 3 way with the big stack in the bb and you let smaller pairs, broadway hands, suited connectors, that can't call preflop see a flop that they probably are only going to continue on with if they are ahead of QQ.

When someone raises and you pick up QQ you shouldn't be feeling ill. Rather you should be ecstatic that you likely are going to double up.

[CardSharpCook]

Your reasoning is actually pretty good and makes me feel better about this hand. I still think I might prefer shoving PF. JJ still calls you as does a lot of other hands. Also, the problem with QQ is that if AK flops, all those low pairs fold out. If low cards flop, AK can get away. This is why I like shoving with QQ PF. YOU have a hard time getting away from any flop (you being QQ), but other hands, not so much. Follow?

There are a number of hands that flat call your raise. JJ and TT are not the only ones. True, the flat call discounts AA/KK/AK, but don't forget about 87s, KQ, A4s, and a lot of other hands that are close to correct to call.

With an ace on the board and 2 queens in your hand, there are 6 combos of AQ. There are also 6 combos of JJ, KQ, and TT.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]

On the flop: Now most will say that this is one of the worst flops that could come for me. However, I would be just as scared of a JT2 flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTFWTFWTF... you've got to be kidding me. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

terrible play in your part. preflop i raise much much more. flop im usually all in here.the way u played it. i would call the check/minraise only cause you have position. and fold to any more bets. folding on the check/raise is not bad either.

also i push instead of raise preflop about 70% of the times.

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
PF: So at this point, I am willing to take QQ to the felt. So the question is, how much to raise. So why did I raise to 60k. It tells the first raiser that I am committed to this hand. If he has AA or KK, so be it, if he has AK, i will race. Now this player had shown a willingness to put the chips in the pot. He played with a mentality of, "I may not always have the best hand, but I am not gonna be the one getting pushed around". Therefore, I believed that 60k was a good amount to put him to the decision. All-in or fold. When he chose option C ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's been suggested by many other posters to push preflop, and I'm really just going to repeat what they've said. If what you stated above was your reasoning, pushing really is the only option. It looks like you're trying to push him around (I personally find a half-stack reraise more frightening than a push) and it eliminates "option C." Besides, I figure that most hands that call your preflop reraise will call all-in.

-cj