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eastbay
11-04-2005, 06:29 PM
By HARVEY ARATON
Published: November 4, 2005

IF Alex Rodriguez so desperately needs the competition fix of a poker game after six-plus months of baseball, there are numerous places he could go that would not put him and his sport at risk and would make him appear community-minded with a youth-conscious and hands-on - so to speak - approach.

He could begin this winter by playing the bar mitzvah circuit.

According to Arnie Wexler, a longtime expert on compulsive gambling, the poker rage has infiltrated coming-out parties for Jewish 13-year-olds. "Kids are telling their parents they want to have a poker party at the bar mitzvah, and the parents are doing it," Wexler said yesterday, interrupting preparation for a speech he was to give last night in Deal, N.J., at a seminar titled, "Teen Gambling: What Every Parent Should Know."

Affirming Wexler's bar mitzvah assertion that hired dancers are out and hip dealers are in was Dan Romer, the research director of the Adolescent Risk Communication Institute at the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center.

"I was at a bar mitzvah recently and, yes, they had a poker table," Romer said in a telephone interview. "It was just for fun, but there they were, a bunch of 13-year-olds learning how to play Texas Hold 'Em."

And apparently learning fast enough to bet furiously, Romer said. Last March, the Annenberg Public Policy Center released a survey that found an alarming spike in the percentage of boys and men between the ages of 14 and 22 betting on cards, to 11.4 percent in 2004 from 6.2 percent in 2003.

"It's kind of scary," Romer said. "We hear all kinds of stories about kids, especially college students, who get hold of a credit card, who stay online playing all night, who become addicted."

Too bad it took a stylish and heavy-hitting Yankee with an average annual income of $25 million - not counting endorsements - to stimulate debate this week on what Wexler calls "the poker explosion" and the dangers it is creating. Except on talk radio, it was all about A-Rod, who, according to an article this week in The Daily News, was told by the Yankees to stay out of Manhattan clubs that operate illegal games.

Will the Yankees refrain from showing on their cable network what they advertise as "the high-stakes action" of the Boston versus New York Poker Challenge? Unlikely, as poker programming has become a ratings keeper, a derivative of the reality television craze. Once a backroom adult passion, poker now poses as an all-American pastime. It is a megamerchandising industry that commands regular newspaper columns, including one in The New York Times.

"How, exactly, did poker become a sport?" Romer said, while musing about adding to next year's survey the question of how many young people actually believe it to be one.

In a sports entertainment industry that has had no crisis of conscience about the use of preadolescent baseball players as late-summer props, who would be surprised by the targeted exposure of vulnerable young people to a get-poor-quick gambling culture that is making icons and role models out of people once referred to as card sharks?

What's next on ESPN, the Little League World Series of Poker? Can you see those supercharged sports parents, hovering over the shoulders of their pimply and poker-faced wannabes, frantically waving cash?

Alex Rodriguez is a grown man, free to gamble his money legally, but the Yankees and baseball should move quickly if he has been frequenting clubs that fall under no supervisory umbrella, in part to protect A-Rod from himself. This is not about affordability. If Michael Jordan's well-chronicled gambling escapades with unsavory characters during the early 1990's taught us anything, it was that our pampered gods of sport often believe accountability is only for mortals.

And firing one's agent is not the equivalent of stiffing an unknown gambling associate from a game run on the sly.

But this is much less about A-Rod than it is about those Type A personalities being encouraged to take their shot at a Las Vegas lifestyle, to forsake traditional career paths for a shortcut to stardom, for a place in an increasingly popular "sport" that does not require uncommon hand-eye coordination or increased muscle mass or breakaway speed.

Like Romer, Wexler is also hearing stories, on the hot line he operates for those seeking help. "One-third of my calls are coming from people under 25, or parents who discover that money has disappeared from checking accounts, credit cards have been taken and run up with thousands in debt," he said.

One parent new to Wexler's speed dial, a mother from East Brunswick, N.J., agreed to speak with me on the condition of anonymity to protect her family's privacy. Her 17-year-old son, she said, had lost no money playing poker online, only the desire to do anything else.

"He was an A student, talking about going to M.I.T.," the mother said. "He was playing online in free tournaments and won enough to be given credit. Now he won't go out with his friends, won't do his schoolwork. He says, 'What do I need to learn chemistry for when I want to be a poker player?' "

A family friend recommended Wexler, and she planned to attend his discussion last night at a Jewish community center in Deal.

"I wish I had known sooner," she said.

Parents of those 13-year-olds now being conditioned to think that a good hand is as cool as a gold glove, are you listening?

eastbay
11-04-2005, 06:31 PM
This article annoyed me, so I wrote the author:

Your article makes it clear that you are disdainful of poker and poker players, but have great respect for athletes. This is perplexing to people who understand both pursuits as being sides of a coin. You seem to fail to grasp the parallels between athletic competition and competitive gamesmanship which is cerebral as opposed to athletic.

Poker is a competitive game that teaches its players a great deal about life, very much as sports can. Poker is often derided as a useless and therefore immoral activity. However, by this argument golf ought to be considered with the same disdain. Hitting a ball towards a hole in the ground so that you can do it again doesn't exactly directly serve any greater good. Sure, you're getting out for a walk which serves some marginal purpose for physical health. In a poker game you are exercising your mind, which also serves some marginal purpose for intellectual health. But, golf is deeper than that, you may say. I agree. But so is poker. The parallels go on: Golf can teach a man about self-control, about calm under pressure, about playing within himself, about the value of self-confidence. Guess what? This is exactly what poker teaches its players as well. But I'd put my chips in on the fact that you've never played the game, so you wouldn't know this.

You mention a young person ("going to MIT") who you imply is wasting his chances at a decent life by zealously pursuing poker.

For every MIT brainiac who has focused on a lucrative career as a poker player at the expense of his schooling, how many athletic kids have ignored their schooling in pursuit of athletic scholarships that they dream will take them to the big leagues and big money? Surely there is no comparison in sheer numbers. So many lives end up also-rans in the quest for athletic fame. Good kids who might have had solid careers if they had anything else on their minds, end up at the bottom of the barrel when the big leagues don't pan out.

Why is the former worthy of derision and the other an admirable pursuit, even if it will almost surely fail?

You include the requisite soundbites from addiction councelors who are "alarmed" and always have an anecdote up their sleeve to scare people.

Are there gambling addicts? Of course. Those with personality disorders bent on self-destruction express them in a variety of different ways. Maybe they repeatedly cheat on their spouses, maybe they drink, maybe they gamble (badly) until they are broke, maybe they chase more socially acceptable "entrepreneurial" ideas which fail time and time again, driving themselves into financial ruin. However, you, as many, seem to be confused about the distinction between a symptom and a disease.

Poker has redeeming qualities just as sport does. The public is starting to catch on. You might want to get on board.

Sincerely,
...

Voltron87
11-04-2005, 08:03 PM
Great letter. I read the same letter and had a similar reaction.

I would make to clarifications to your post. Athletes provide entertainment to millions, that is what they offer to society. Do they deserve as much money as they get? Probably not. But they certainly provide something to society. I think the ethics of professional poker are in a very gray area to say the least.

Second, the rapid increase in youth gambling is also worrying. While I have learned an absolutely staggering amount about money, life, professionalism, everything from poker, it is going to mess with a lot of kids' lives. I agree that the "kid finds credit card, goes into debt, gets killed by mafia" notion is off base, but I don't think you can play up youth gambling as a positive experience. I have learned so much from poker but I frankly am much more intelligent, responsible and mature than your average teenager and a lot of kids aren't equipped or prepared to learn from poker or have it as a positive influence in their life. Look at all people who get into credit card debt for example. Tons of people have awful financial skills. The kids benefitting from poker are the smart kids and the outliers. So while I defintely agree with you that poker can teach kids a lot, and that anti gambling proponents are off the deep end, youth gambling can be a really bad thing. I'm not saying gambling and youth gambling are the most and only dangerous vices in this culture, but be careful not to overstate your case here.

Your point about the athletes who chase big league dreams and waste two decades of their life while ignoring everything else is a very important one and I agree with it 100%. Araton doesn't even mention these people.

The Times' sports columnists are awful. Murray Chass wrote an article recently about how even though Arod had an MVP season and lead the league in OPS, doing exponentially better than his first year in New York, he was doing something wrong because he was striking out a lot more. That is asinine.

eastbay
11-04-2005, 08:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can play up youth gambling as a positive experience.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I did.

I think your parallel with the dangers of a credit card are apt. You don't give an irresponsible, immature youth a credit card because while he could learn how to be responsible as a result of making small mistakes and learning from them, he might also figuratively hang himself. Poker or other gambling games have the same dangers.

I'd permit my child to be involved in gambling according to the law, and my judgment of his level of maturity and to the extent that they could demonstrate to me that they could handle the responsibility, which is significant. This is really no different from good parenting in general. For example, letting your daughter date is necessary for her growth and maturity, but you are also flirting with major danger of lives ruined at the same time. You have to do your best to teach your kids how to handle their responsibilities and make mature decisions. I don't believe a blanket prohibition of poker playing is a good way to do that any more than a blanket prohibition of teenage dating would be.

eastbay

El Ishmael
11-04-2005, 08:45 PM
Nice response letter. Don't necessarily agree with everything you say but definitely some of it.

FWIW the author of the article lives a few blocks away from me. I'll let him know the next time I see him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Voltron87
11-04-2005, 10:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can play up youth gambling as a positive experience.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I did.

I think your parallel with the dangers of a credit card are apt. You don't give an irresponsible, immature youth a credit card because while he could learn how to be responsible as a result of making small mistakes and learning from them, he might also figuratively hang himself. Poker or other gambling games have the same dangers.

I'd permit my child to be involved in gambling according to the law, and my judgment of his level of maturity and to the extent that they could demonstrate to me that they could handle the responsibility, which is significant. This is really no different from good parenting in general. For example, letting your daughter date is necessary for her growth and maturity, but you are also flirting with major danger of lives ruined at the same time. You have to do your best to teach your kids how to handle their responsibilities and make mature decisions. I don't believe a blanket prohibition of poker playing is a good way to do that any more than a blanket prohibition of teenage dating would be.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

I was exaggerating to make my point, there is a lot to learn from poker. There is a dark side to gambling which a lot of people who get caught up in it never really think rationally about what they're doing or learn for it.

My other point about credit cards is this: a lot of people are stupid, in short. Why do people carry credit card debt for years on stuff they don't really need? Because they don't think about the way the interest they are paying is going to make not paying off their debt extremely expensive. Some people are more intelligent and have parents who explain "well, don't carry a balance on credit cards unless it's an absolute emergency because...". Given the state of the credit card industry, not everyone learned this when they were a kid. I am lucky enough to have parents who laid stuff like that out for me. My bigger point about that is: Not everyone is intelligent to really grasp poker or to benefit from it. Poker isn't really all that hard at low limits, but a lot of people aren't really all that smart. This makes poker a dangerous thing rather than a beneficial one to a lot of people.

I would definitely agree that a blanket prohibition of poker for kids is a bad idea. For teenagers a blanket prohibition on anything except armed robbery, hard drugs, etc. is a bad idea. Kids are going to be exposed to the real world eventually, and if you don't deal with things like alcohol, marijuana, dating, etc, things which are not going to kill your kid and are a part of society which they will encounter eventually, you are doing a disservice to your kid. There are a lot of things kids aren't equipped to deal with alone which they will have to deal with when they grow up and move out, and one of the main responsibilities a parent has is to get the kid from the point they aren't able to make those decisions on their own to a point where they can. All this relates to poker and kids because it is the framework in which poker can be a positive influence.

Python49
11-04-2005, 10:51 PM
It's good to see that the new generation of fish are catching the poker bug early, gives some people some job security.

eastbay
11-04-2005, 10:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]

My other point about credit cards is this: a lot of people are stupid, in short. Why do people carry credit card debt for years on stuff they don't really need?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But at the same time I don't think a good solution is to close all the stores so all the idiots who can't control their spending don't hurt themselves. (I'm not saying you are, I'm just pointing out in principle why blaming poker for people's troubles is missing the point.)

I honestly can't relate to people like that at all. How can they not understand interest? This is not rocket science.

I'm not a poker professional primarily because I like to think that I have a career that is a little better than a zero sum game where I only gain at the expense of others.

On the other hand I don't think it is ethically wrong to do so. As long as the deal is fair, poker is an extremely pure, fair, and clean competition.

It doesn't matter who you know, or who your parents were, or what school you went to, or what color your skin is, or how you talk or how you dress. It only matters what you do. If only every occupation were as fair and just as that!

eastbay

pokernicus
11-05-2005, 09:00 AM
Very nice and well articulated letter! I also disliked the article.

It's amazing what misconceptions exist about poker. I think in most peoples' minds, poker is equated to other forms of gambling like blackjack, craps, etc. Therefore, many people erroneously believe that if you are a poker enthusiast, then you're a gambler (or have a gambling problem). And that's generally not true (though many high-profile players do engage in other forms of gambling).

I think people fail to realize 1) that it's possible to have an edge in poker, and 2) the amount of ability required to be a succesful player.

mshalen
11-05-2005, 10:47 AM
The article was correct in describing the popularity of holdem being played at bar mitzvahs. My daughter is now attending at least one event per weekend and has been to a number of partys with holdem.

At the end of the night the kids use their chips to buy small gift/party favor types of stuff. My daughter (thanks to her dads great parenting skills) has been coming home with DVDs, CDs, movie tickets and assorted other crap every time she goes. She said the boys are easy to beat and are a bunch of fish because they assume a girl doesn't know how to play and they think she just got lucky.

I love my daughter and I am very glad she got her moms brains and looks.

AceHigh
11-05-2005, 11:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
She said the boys are easy to beat and are a bunch of fish because they assume a girl doesn't know how to play and they think she just got lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason losing poker players always think the winner, "just got lucky", it has nothing to do with her being female.

Alex/Mugaaz
11-05-2005, 11:52 PM
That's a good letter.

masse75
11-07-2005, 10:53 PM
Not Jewish, but if my son wanted a poker party for a bar mitzvah, I'd tell him, "Go master 7-Stud Hi/Lo first. Then we'll talk."

Of course, I don't have a son, either...

MD2020
11-08-2005, 12:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Not Jewish, but if my son wanted a poker party for a bar mitzvah, I'd tell him, "Go master 7-Stud Hi/Lo first. Then we'll talk."

Of course, I don't have a son, either...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're not Jewish, I don't think you have to worry about your son wanting poker at his bar mitzah.

Aloysius
11-08-2005, 02:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can play up youth gambling as a positive experience.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I did.

I think your parallel with the dangers of a credit card are apt. You don't give an irresponsible, immature youth a credit card because while he could learn how to be responsible as a result of making small mistakes and learning from them, he might also figuratively hang himself. Poker or other gambling games have the same dangers.

I'd permit my child to be involved in gambling according to the law, and my judgment of his level of maturity and to the extent that they could demonstrate to me that they could handle the responsibility, which is significant. This is really no different from good parenting in general. For example, letting your daughter date is necessary for her growth and maturity, but you are also flirting with major danger of lives ruined at the same time. You have to do your best to teach your kids how to handle their responsibilities and make mature decisions. I don't believe a blanket prohibition of poker playing is a good way to do that any more than a blanket prohibition of teenage dating would be.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Eastbay - well thought out response and interesting topic.

I think though, it's possible you are underestimating the addictive, "gambley" nature of poker. For a vast majority of poker players, poker = blackjack, or craps, or roulette. This is why I don't think it's unfair to lump poker in with these other gambling pursuits, and to measure the downsides of poker in that light.

Though I agree with you that the author was far too heavy-handed in his assessment of the ills of poker.

chessforlife
11-08-2005, 03:11 PM
pretty funny. thanks for posting

chessforlife
11-08-2005, 03:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She said the boys are easy to beat and are a bunch of fish because they assume a girl doesn't know how to play and they think she just got lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason losing poker players always think the winner, "just got lucky", it has nothing to do with her being female.

[/ QUOTE ]

the just got lucky belief is what supports us. don't knock it.