What about this play....

[mscags]

What do you guys think about this one.

PP 15-30

Full game, i'm in the SB with AsJc

A loose and not very good UTG limps, folded to me and I raise. BB, a solid player with TAGish stats, reraises, UTG calls and I call.

Flop comes
A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, UTG raises, I reraise, BB caps.

Turn

J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I lead out, BB calls, UTG calls.

River is a 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, BB checks, UTG bets, I raise.....

[daryn]

perfect river acion (which i assume was the question), you know you can beat utg but not sure if the bb has AK.. surely he can't call that checkraise!

[elindauer]

Oh man, are you ever spewing chips...

First of all, your flop 3-bet makes no sense. If the BB has hit the board, you are way behind with no hope of making him fold. If not, then he's way behind drawing to 2 outs and you shouldn't mind him coming along for the ride.

Now, it's true that he might be correct to call with QQ for 1 SB. However, he does not gain much by calling. On the other hand, if you reraise and are wrong, you're going to lose a big percentage of your bet every time. That's assuming you're not already losing to UTG, of course.

So, you have to be ahead most of the time to justify giving all this excess action to the BB.

Then, when he caps the flop anyways, you lead into him again? Huh?! Are you trying to lose the max? I don't get it. Do you really think he's going to fold? And what are you reading UTG for? Did you notice that spades just got there?

Now, you get to the river. You finally come to your senses and check, recognizing that you have little hope of beating the BB at this point. When UTG bets, you have perhaps put yourself in a position to capitalize on all the excess action you've given. Maybe UTG has AQ, and maybe the BB can be made to fold AK for 2 cold. Maybe.

If you're going to call anyways, it's certainly worth the extra 1 BB investment to find out. You've represented a bigger hand than you have, so go ahead and go all out trying to win this monster.

Next time, ease off the gas.

good luck.
eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
perfect river acion (which i assume was the question), you know you can beat utg but not sure if the bb has AK.. surely he can't call that checkraise!

[/ QUOTE ]

You have hit the nail on the head with the river action... but are you sure the BB won't call with AK? If the SB (hero) really has a flush, his river action is rather bizarre.

I'd expect the BB to be too suspicious to fold a hand that big. That said, if you're calling anyways, may as well invest the extra bet and find out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-eric

[mscags]

[ QUOTE ]
Then, when he caps the flop anyways, you lead into him again? Huh?! Are you trying to lose the max? I don't get it. Do you really think he's going to fold? And what are you reading UTG for? Did you notice that spades just got there?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point about leading out the turn was to represent the flush. I did have Aces and Jacks not to mention the nut flush draw. I had a good read on UTG and did not put him on a flush draw. By betting out here when the spade hits I almost guarantee myself not to be raised. BB was a pretty solid player, he would not raise in that spot. I'm going to call one bet there obviously so why not bet out? If I had just check called then it is almost impossible to pull off my river play. By representing the flush like that, it makes it possible to pull off the checkraise.

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point about leading out the turn was to represent the flush. I did have Aces and Jacks not to mention the nut flush draw. [...] By betting out here when the spade hits I almost guarantee myself not to be raised. BB was a pretty solid player, he would not raise in that spot. I'm going to call one bet there obviously so why not bet out? If I had just check called then it is almost impossible to pull off my river play. By representing the flush like that, it makes it possible to pull off the checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why try to pull off the check-raise? There's a really good chance your Aces and Jacks just aren't good enough, if this player is as solid as you say. With all the raises, you're too likely to be up against AK or a set. I play mostly $30/60 and $80/160 online, and am amazed at how often people try to check-raise with hands like top pair, nine kicker. You've obviously made your point. Bet for value if you want, and call if raised. With the check-raise, what's the point of risking a re-raise?

[kidcolin]

I think you're going through the hand backwards to justify the play. You say he's a solid player. Why'd you go balls to the wall with him on the flop? Also, if he's solid, he should be able to deduce that by the preflop action, there aren't a lot of made flush hands you can have. Looks like either AQ or AT, maybe a couple more if you'll raise out of the SB lighter than that. I think a set pops the turn pretty often there, and you should be concnerned about that.

[Notorious G.O.B.]

I don't really think AK would check the river after hero checks into him. I wouldn't, anyway.

[vmacosta]

Why would BB check top 2 on the river after hero has (apparently) given up and UTG is a fish and has done nothing but call? I think this hand was played weird on every street (except maybe the turn).

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point about leading out the turn was to represent the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I get it. The point is, you aren't going to represent your hand convincingly enough to get a fold, which is what you need. Were you already planning this elaborate check-hope-the-BB-doesn't-bet-so-I-can-face-him-with-2-cold-with-my-bizarro-play-"flush" river bluff?

Put another way, given the action, is it really possible that you do have a flush? Would you actually play a flush like this?

You gave way too much action, giving up lots of EV, but may have recovered some at the end with your desperation raise. Bravo for recognizing the situation and bluff-raising to potentially knock out the best hand and win the pot yourself. Boo for the rest.

-eric

[La Brujita]

I agree way too many bets on flop and turn.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]

Why try to pull off the check-raise? There's a really good chance your Aces and Jacks just aren't good enough, if this player is as solid as you say. With all the raises, you're too likely to be up against AK or a set. I play mostly $30/60 and $80/160 online, and am amazed at how often people try to check-raise with hands like top pair, nine kicker. You've obviously made your point. Bet for value if you want, and call if raised. With the check-raise, what's the point of risking a re-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

did anyone else find this post odd and slightly amusing?

[mscags]

[ QUOTE ]
You gave way too much action, giving up lots of EV

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I agree on the flop that I gave to much action, but besides that where else do you think I was over aggro?