Aces cracking part deux...

Not a good day for me with bullets LOL...

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (17.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 21.25 BB.

[Scotch78]

Turn raise looks pretty bad to me. There's nothing for MP1 to be representing and two aggressors to bluff out, plus there was only one strong draw for him to cold-call the flop with. I'm thinking MP1 has at least trips a very high percentage of the time, but the pot's big enough I would probably call down in the hopes he has a horribly played overpair.

Scott

[W. Deranged]

I think MP1's turn raise smells like [censored]. I'm very wary of it.

With that said, that doesn't mean I don't think we should raise. But we should be raising this turn with the intent to fold to a three-bet. The presence of the intermediate guy makes me want to charge him. He may have 67 or something in which case I want his money in there now.

Raising and folding to a three-bet really sucks here, but in my opinion it's much better than calling down. The extra value more than makes up for the very rare occurance we get three-bet by an inferior hand and fold a winner.

[lightw1thoutheat]

hey,
I was CO in this hand, and was just about to post this hand.
What did you put me on?
I particularly liked the way i played it, but we can argue that at another point. I hoped that youd pay off a river raise with a big pair.
-light

[thesharpie]

Ducks? I can't think of any hand you played well.

[HajiShirazu]

MP1, if he had a set or trips, played his hand pretty well if he knows you are aggressive. I would immediately be suspicious on the turn looking at this action though. My first thought was "raise turn good" but now that I think about it, the guy cold called two on the drawless flop then bets the monster rainbow deuce on the turn. Sounds like he wanted to keep people in on the flop, then wanted you to raise him on the turn-could be being results oriented here though. CO's action doesn't worry me as much as the turn goes, I would put have him on a pocket pair or a five, however I guess he seemed to have a big hand given the river action. What on earth did he have though? Q8? QQ/55/22? I would say raise and fold to a 3-bet, but why throw away your 2-4 outs on this drawless board when you aren't a favorite to be ahead.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
hey,
I was CO in this hand, and was just about to post this hand.
What did you put me on?
I particularly liked the way i played it, but we can argue that at another point. I hoped that youd pay off a river raise with a big pair.
-light

[/ QUOTE ]

55? A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? 98s? 87s?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say raise and fold to a 3-bet, but why throw away your 2-4 outs on this drawless board when you aren't a favorite to be ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the (not so remote) possibility that we have 4 clean outs versus 55 or 22 make a raise-fold turn line problematic.

Even if we just have 2 outs (which of course is also possible), those outs would be worth about 0.7-0.8 BBs at the time we'd be folding.

[molawn2mo]

Just another case of WE NEED READS."

Preface to say that I have not played 1 hand of 2/4 or lower poker in my life so my perspective is from 3/6 to 10/20.

If this were a good thinking opp then his line is easily readable as a bet/3 bet scenario because it is likely that the turn , if checked by him, will be bet by another allowing him to c/r and get in 2 bets.

That said... what hand does MP1 have that wants to get in 2 or 3 bets? PP or an 8.

For those of you, Will, that advocate a raise the turn line then I would think that you have to fold to a 3 bet.

If the turn goes bet, call, call followed by the river... bet, raise... hero has an easy fold here.

Unless you arae folding to a 3 turn bet, I do not like the idea of raising the turn arguing that CO is padding the pot because he very well may bail to the raise figuring his 77 or 99 is drawing to 2 outs at best.

My gut tells me that I would like to see the river and, if behind, have the opportunity to hit my 2 outer, rather than extracting value with a turn raise and
a. folding to a raise without having the chance to spike an ace.
b. folding to a turn bluff 3 bet.

I was struggling to put you on anything until the river light. On the turn I had MP1 with an 8, or with pocket ducks. I couldnt figure out why you were just calling. On the river, it was obvious you had at least the 8 with top kicker, but we both know that you had...

fives full. So I was [censored] from the flop LOL. In fact I had the 3rd best hand as MP1 had the 8...

[lightw1thoutheat]

fair enough, its my first day back after a month or so off for a variety of reasons.

I planned on c/r ing the turn, but doing that after a harmless deuce falls looks odd. I wanted to keep this pot three handed. I felt that MP had an 8, and that hero had some overpair. When MP lead the turn, that changed things for me. I suspected a raise from Hero, had been pretty aggro so far in the session, and obviously liked his hand. The two shouldnt scare him if he has a big pair.

Donkbets arent particularly scary either. I didnt want to lose him with a raise. When MP 3 bet, i knew a call/cap from me kills action. Calling again can assure me 1 bet from hero on turn, and at least 2 bets total on river.

On river, i thought i can get 1 bet each from mp and hero by overcalling. But i knew MP would call a raise, and maybe 3 bet. I hoped that hero would coldcall what looks like a very odd bet. Either way, im just coming back and advice'd be nice.

thanks,
-light

OOps, had 55

[W. Deranged]

Probably A8 or 55. In that case I think you played the hand quite well in fact. I love donk-betting turns with monsters. Idiots like me advocate raising the turn and hence make you a lot of money.

[Nick C]

I agree with what others have said about how MP1's turn donk-bet looks suspiciously like an attempt to bet/3-bet. However, I'm not sure how much it is or isn't influencing me that I can see that the 3-bet actually came.

To some extent, it's a question of how much respect we have for MP1. A lot of 2/4 players with trips or a flopped boat would slowplay the flop and then checkraise the turn. Others would just lead the flop.

Here we have one who apparently planned to checkraise the flop but then abandoned that idea when it got bet and raised anyway (a check/3-bet would give his hand away). After that, I think the turn lead is a good play, but I don't know how many 2/4 players would handle their trips or flopped boat the way MP1 did.

[W. Deranged]

In general I think the best strategies for this flop should involve check-raising a single bet on the flop and donking a lot of turns. You should be willing to raise on the flop if it looks promising. Check-three-betting in this scenario likely would have killed to much action in my opinion, though. So I like the way the hand actually played out for you.

[Nick C]

Light was the CO.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
hey,
I was CO in this hand, and was just about to post this hand.
What did you put me on?
I particularly liked the way i played it, but we can argue that at another point. I hoped that youd pay off a river raise with a big pair.
-light

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in an awkward position on the flop, since any checkraise of the field on this board will be scary. But I think I would have gone for a checkraise, hoping at least to get a call or two or three from overcards before showing strength.

All of a sudden on the turn you're in an awkward spot again (though it's a pleasant surprise to have MP1 wake up like that), and I can see why you called. If Hero smells a rat and also just calls, though, that's really bad for you, since you're most likely at least getting called by MP1 if you raise (and possibly you're getting 3-bet).

The cold-call of the 3-bet is a little bit risky, as if by some chance MP1 has 22, you don't want Hero hanging around with his four outs, for just one bet. But your play is +EV those times that MP1 has trips instead (as he usually will, I think), so long as Hero would fold if you capped and so long as MP1 is going to start calling down versus any additional raise from you at this point.