Playing for a living formulae

[Gandor]

I know this has been posted before, but I'm at work, and I suck with the search function. I'm hoping someone has the thread as a favorite. My fiance is finishing up her medical residency and will soon be getting a real doctor job. This will mean quitting my job to relocate. While looking for a new job, I will be playing considerably more poker online to make up for it.

A while back someone had posted a formula that took income amount, living expenses, win-rate, SD and other factors into account. If anyone remembers the thread or has it as a favorite, a link to it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[MicroBob]

I'm not sure which thread.

but 500BB's plus 3-4 months of your estimated monthly-nut (always rounding up) should be sufficient.


So if you are a 5/10 player with an estimated monthly-nut of $2k then:
$5k + $8k = $13k for total bankroll should hopefully be enough where you don't get TOO uncomfortable when you hit those annoying downswings.

Obviously if you have a huge downswing then you'll have to consider dropping levels to rebuild your roll.

I prefer even a little more cushion then these numbers actually...but it's up to the individual of course.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure which thread.

but 500BB's plus 3-4 months of your estimated monthly-nut (always rounding up) should be sufficient.


So if you are a 5/10 player with an estimated monthly-nut of $2k then:
$5k + $8k = $13k for total bankroll should hopefully be enough where you don't get TOO uncomfortable when you hit those annoying downswings.

Obviously if you have a huge downswing then you'll have to consider dropping levels to rebuild your roll.

I prefer even a little more cushion then these numbers actually...but it's up to the individual of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good. I would also add that if your fiance is making a steady income you could get away with a little less IF you had to, such as 10k, but the more you have the easier it is. This also depends on the financial situation you two have.

Also, whatever you do be conservative in planning. If you think you need 2k a month to survive remember to add for taxes, savings, and emergencies. I build taxes and savings into my monthly nut and then I add 500 dollars...

Also if you are a 1.5bb/100 player make your plan based around 1bb/100. Being conservative while planning takes a lot of stress off the bad months and makes the good months that much better.

[dogmeat]

Not sure which one you ment, but here is one:

The size of your bankroll has a lot of elements to it. Generally, players learn to live with about 300x their table limt bet (for $3/$6, that would be $1800). This takes for granted the idea that you are a proven, winning player, and make over 1.5 big bets per 100 hands. This should give you an element of ruin of less than 5% (your chance of going broke - baring poor play and tilt).

Personally,I prefer to have 25 times my standard deviation as a minimum. My SD is about 16 units. If I was playing $3/$6, that would mean for any 100 hands, my standard + or - would be $96. 25x that gives me $2400 for my "comfortable" bankroll.

Next, consider the aspect of "savings" - not playing bankroll, but the actual money you socked away to pay all of your possible expenses for at least three months. Again, I prefer six months of savings. This will allow you to weather any storm of poor/unlucky play and still pay your bills without touching your "playing bankroll."

So, If you are going to play $3/$6 and have a monthly nut of $2500 (your mandatory expenses), then you need at least $7500 in savings, and a bankroll of at least $1800. If you win 1.5 big bets or $9 per 100 hands, and play 60 hands per hour, you need to log 278 table hours of play to pay your bills. If your log 300 table hours, you can expect to add $207 to your bankroll each month.

If you play 3 tables at one time, and still make 1.5BB per 100 hands, you need to work 100 hours per month to do the above.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

500BB + 4 months MINIMUM.

If you play shorthanded primarily, I'd suggest more. Bottom line, you want to never have to worry about not making your monthly nut.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]

Also if you are a 1.5bb/100 player make your plan based around 1bb/100. Being conservative while planning takes a lot of stress off the bad months and makes the good months that much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do this.

[LImitPlayer]

Where do you people get your monthly nut figures from?

I have read many posts that say people have monthly nuts of 2K-3K etc, my question is how in the hell do you people do it?

I don't think I'm extravegant by any stech of the imagination but my monthly nut is about 6K monthly.

How do you live off of a 2-3K monthly nut?

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you people get your monthly nut figures from?

I have read many posts that say people have monthly nuts of 2K-3K etc, my question is how in the hell do you people do it?

I don't think I'm extravegant by any stech of the imagination but my monthly nut is about 6K monthly.

How do you live off of a 2-3K monthly nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally. I have a fairly reasonable mortgage, 1 car payment (not an expensive one), a couple credit cards, and my student loans, plus groceries etc. Mine is at least $4500 a month.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you people get your monthly nut figures from?

I have read many posts that say people have monthly nuts of 2K-3K etc, my question is how in the hell do you people do it?

I don't think I'm extravegant by any stech of the imagination but my monthly nut is about 6K monthly.

How do you live off of a 2-3K monthly nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rent a room for $500 a month with utilities included, car payments of $350, BlueCross/BlueShield for $120, throw in food and gas... living the good life, for sure.

My freshman year of college I was paying no more than $400 a month for rent and utilities. It took a mediocre townhouse with 4 roommates to do so, but hey, we had cable, broadband, and everything else we needed.

Doesn't make it glamorous, or even comfortable, but it's definitely possible, for whatever that's worth.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you people get your monthly nut figures from?

I have read many posts that say people have monthly nuts of 2K-3K etc, my question is how in the hell do you people do it?

I don't think I'm extravegant by any stech of the imagination but my monthly nut is about 6K monthly.

How do you live off of a 2-3K monthly nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my monthly estimated expenses for November.

I am super conservative with this so I usually end up only spending 4k, but 5k is my goal. Any extra money goes towards my bankroll.

Also note that this is more than I need to survive, so if it's coming down to it I don't need to spend 50 dollars on music or books a month, but I would never let myself get into the situation where I'd have to cut it out.

I got screwed with health insurance due to my own idiocy. I was dropped off my parents plan a few months ago after graduation and didn't properly take care of the situation, thus I am forced to pay this rediculous amount for one more month before I go find something cheaper...so that number should drop to 150-200.

Lastly, taxes is probably over conservative and I'm going to HR Block next week to discuss a better estimate, so that will change.

Living Expenses

Minimal

Rent 400
UT 100
Health 450
Car/gas 250
Food 500
Clothes 200
Clout 100
Dell 75
Providian 75
Fleet 50

Haircut 20
Gym 35
Eye 35
Newspaper 10
Bath Stuff 30
Music 50
Books 50
Meds 100
Other 520


3050



Savings

Long Term 800
Retirement 200

1000




All Taxes

Taxes 1000



Total: 5050

[12AX7]

Been doing it my whole life, or even less. And heck I have a degree in Comp. Sci. and have worked an many Fort. 500's including IBM itself. Because I had to. Best I ever did was about 100K a year during the Y2K debacle when mainframe programmers were in short supply. Most years 50-60K as more typical recently.

6K/month nut means you have to earn soemthing in the six figures a year right?

Most folks don't earn six figures.

I'd say you're in the upper class and appear clueless about most folks lives.

No disrespect intended. Just waking ya up to reality for the majority.

And you know what. It f'cking sux. 20 years as a degreed professional in corp. USA and still having to consider money issues and wondering "when do I get to the upper class life I was aiming for?"

Far as I'm concerned Wall Street has screwed most of us... more severely since the '87 crash to be sure.

We ought to be revolting against it. But we're sheep. Or perhaps more correctly the fishies of the upper echelon. LOL!

Anyway, so when I read, Ed Miller saying folks make 200K playing poker, I have to wonder how stupid am I that I've read his stuff and struggle to break even.

Or those folks that talk about how awful life is as an online pro.

I say screw being a working class slave. If you are making high five or six figures at poker, count your blessings.

Anyway, I actually agree with you. Given home prices today, a 6K nut is realistic for a family man. A 6 figure income is almost mandatory these days to live decently. But the freaken job market doesn't support it in general. And most folks are trapped.

For several decades now a home has been a two-average-incomes proposition.

So they ship jobs overseas and are trying to make us compete dollar for dollar with labor costs in India... but are prices for the basics going to come down in line with that? Fat chance. (What's the probability of that all you math wizards?)

We ought to be holding our leaders feet to the fire on these issues.

But again. We are thier fishies.

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
Far as I'm concerned Wall Street has screwed most of us... more severely since the '87 crash to be sure.

We ought to be revolting against it. But we're sheep.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So they ship jobs overseas and are trying to make us compete dollar for dollar with labor costs in India... but are prices for the basics going to come down in line with that? Fat chance

[/ QUOTE ]

Then

[ QUOTE ]
I have to wonder how stupid am I that I've read his stuff and struggle to break even.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont wonder.

Oh, and in regards to
[ QUOTE ]
Or those folks that talk about how awful life is as an online pro. I say screw being a working class slave. If you are making high five or six figures at poker, count your blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I make 6 figures but will hopefully quit playing altogether as soon as I graduate, and will be happy to make 45k or w/e. At least thats how I feel now. I am investing and saving half my income in preperation for this.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say you're in the upper class and appear clueless about most folks lives

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say I'm upper class, We live way below our means and about the only out of line thing thing I have is my car.

I wasn't sure exactly what my monthly nut was so I figured it out and it was close. It was $6,600.00 This does not include things like going out, household repairs, dentist bills clothes, hair cuts, toys for my daughter, toys for me etc. etc.
I'd say that once you added up all the other misc expenses
that are not listed here I'd be closer to 8K/month unless we became hermits.

Morgatge and prpoerty taxes$2,249.17
Car #1 936.82
Car #2 308.59
Car Insurance 308.59
House Insurance 20.75
Gas (auto) 600.00
Utilities 150.00
Phone 60.00
Cell Phone 50.00
Cable/Internet 110.00
Gym memberships 105.00
Groceries 1,000.00
Daycare 700.00


Other then the 1 car I can't see any expenses that are out of line. Maybe I just don't have a clue?

A $936 a month car payment? WTF do you drive, a Lamborghini?

[MicroBob]

that mortgage looks high to me too...but i guess you'll pay off your house faster of course.


i don't currently lead the most luxurious life and I have no kids...so my expenses are certainly much less than most.
Similar to that of a single, just-out-of-school, bachelor.
My car is entirely paid off. It's a piece of crap and I will be purchasing a new one in the near future.
Also note that I don't drive very much since I work from home.


rent - $500
heat/elect/phone/cable/internet/health ins - $600
food (grociers and dining out - $1000
car expenses (gas/maintenance/insurance) - $300
other - $300

(other includes my cat, soccer-league fees, cleaning products, toiletries, etc....this figure could more realistically be as little as $100/mth I think)


so my total monthly nut is around $2700.

And I think this is a little bit of a stretch because I think I am high on a couple of figures.

Of course, there are unexpected expenses....and I take more vacations than most which I don't count in my monthly-nut. These trips come only if I feel I can afford them.
Perhaps I should include them in the nut...not sure.


anyway, if you are young and live with a roommate or significant-other to cover almost half of these costs then you could easily be in a situation where your portion of the monthly-expenses is $2k.

[LImitPlayer]

Quote:
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A $936 a month car payment? WTF do you drive, a Lamborghini?


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Lol, I wish. I drive a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee, I paid 57,000 for it. By the time you add on interst and taxes it comes up to $936/month. My fiance drives a G6.

My morgatge isn't really all that high, $1,900/Month without the taxes, and we are not making any extra payments.

It's a simple 3 bedroom housse, nothing fancy.
I live in the GTA area which is pretty expensive

I should also mention I live I Canada so you can take off about 15%, I'm talking Canadian currency.

But then you have to figure that everythign we buy has 15% sales tax added on top of it compared to the US 5% or so I believe so there isnt really all that much differnce in the $$ values.

The car is pretty expensive, I concede that point but we are allowed to have some toys are we not?

what's so complicated? figure out your expenses-- that's what u need to stay alive.

[MicroBob]

Ummm....no, you can't just tack on the taxes and say that Canadian is 'about the same' (even though the American dollar is weaker these days).
We kind of get taxes down here too.

The revelation that you're talking Canadian currency does make a difference.



"GTA"???

Greater Toronto Area??
Grandest Trans-sexual Association??
Global Trade Agreement??

I'm from Canada too, but that car payment seems outrageous to me regardless. I used to drive a 2002 Dodge Dakota, leased brand new with no money down, and my payment was only $550 including taxes.

I get that GTA (greater toronto area for the non-canucks in the audience) is expensive so your living expenses don't seem too out of line. I just can't get over that car payment.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm from Canada too, but that car payment seems outrageous to me regardless. I used to drive a 2002 Dodge Dakota, leased brand new

[/ QUOTE ]

I bought my car, you leased yours. I have had a dodge dakota in the past. The Dakota is a lot cheaper then the Jeep. By the time you tack on the taxes it was over 60K. It was a 5 year loan with about 10K down

[LImitPlayer]

I was under the impression that the taxes in the states are far cheaper then in Canada.

I really have no idea but I was under the impression that 5% was the norm down there were as ours is 15%, that 10% difference pretty much makes up a lot of the difference between the value of our dollar and yours, but then I don't really know your tax situation.

[MicroBob]

I'm not getting how a Jeep Grand Cherokee runs $57k to be honest (even though we're talking Canadian).

It's a nice vehicle....and I guess $40k American is possible for one of those things with the various frills. But it still seems a bit much.

My GF had a Grand Cherokee, circa 2001 or 2002 I think. And I'm pretty sure she didn't pay nearly that much for it.
I might ask her what she pays per month on it just out of curiousity.

[LImitPlayer]

Sorry maybe I should have been clearer.

This is the Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited Edition. The one with the upgraded hemi engine, GPS navigational system etc.
Theres nothing this SUV doesn't have

The normal Cherokee starts at about 35K base price, this ones base price was 48K

The only regret I have is the fuel milage I get. I can hold about 80 Litres and I get just over 300 km a tank.
Really really bad on the fuel.

My fiances G6 can get us to my parents house and back which is about 90 minutes away on a quarter of a tank, my car uses more then 3/4 of the tank for the same trip and it holds a lot more gas then hers does.

[MicroBob]

yeah. when you mentioned the price I figured it must be pretty 'souped-up' with that kind if stuff.


GF was REALLY noticing the poor mileage on hers just as she switched work-places (for a longer commute) while the gas-prices were going higher and higher.


It's REALLY nice to not have to be on the road so freaking much because I am working from home.

I walk to a nearby convenience stores for quick items (milk, bread, whatever) as well as a couple of restaurants and bars in my neighborhood.
So I've been known to go 3 or 4 days sometimes without using my car (thus my lazyness about getting a new one...I just don't use it that much...so what do I care if it's a piece of crap?)

[Nick-Zack]

Last months expense report is a good example of why keeping a bunch of cash in reserve is a very good idea. The huge entry under Household is new living room furniture:

Cash Flow - Last Mo

10/1/2005 Through 10/31/2005

Category Description 10/1/2005- 10/31/2005

INFLOWS
Gambling 5.00
Interest Inc 102.37
Poker Income
Affiliate 14.00
Bonus 740.00
Expense -860.30
Pay 3,607.71
Poker -4,376.82
TOTAL Poker Income -875.41
TOTAL INFLOWS -768.04

OUTFLOWS
Auto
Fuel 102.51
Service 20.00
TOTAL Auto 122.51
Bank Charge 2.00
Cash 338.11
Child Support 575.00
Clothing 309.34
Entertainment 567.29
Food
Dining Out 486.45
Fast Food 221.58
Groceries 227.99
TOTAL Food 936.02
Gifts Given 78.28
Household 3,185.05
Insurance
Health 212.10
Life Insurance 31.64
TOTAL Insurance 243.74
Interest Exp 30.78
Rent 600.00
Utilities
Cable TV 133.19
Gas & Electric 118.24
Telephone 52.41
Water 28.71
TOTAL Utilities 332.55
TOTAL OUTFLOWS 7,320.67

OVERALL TOTAL -8,088.71

[ QUOTE ]
Fast Food 221.58

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that this ins't just for yourself but for an entire family!?

[Nick-Zack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fast Food 221.58

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that this ins't just for yourself but for an entire family!?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have 2 sons so some of that is theirs. Last month though seemed to be a McDonald's breakfast fiesta.

[12AX7]

I'm not saying your expenses are out of line or that you are living beyond your means.

I'm saying your expenses are more than I've ever made. And I'm a bachelor degreed veteran of the Fort. 500 game in a technical field.

I'm saying you're making enough that if I'd been making for the last 20 years, I'd be a happy camper and have a *huge* bank account and be retired.

I'm saying your are way above median income and that tons of people live with a nut significantly smaller than yours, and don't get to save a penny. LOL!

[chessforlife]

where is the formulae post?

What were the expenses and how are they figured for the party affiliate program. This month I got paid $9 in expenses. That made no sense to me.

[Nick-Zack]

[ QUOTE ]
What were the expenses and how are they figured for the party affiliate program. This month I got paid $9 in expenses. That made no sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I categorize a poker expense as Neteller Fees, airplane tickets to Vegas, Food while playing in a B & M , etc.

Here is last months breakdown:

Poker Income:Expense - Oct 2005

10/1/2005 Through 10/31/2005

Date Account Num Description Memo Category Clr Amount

10/17/2005 Netbank S Epassporte Poker Income:Expense R -25.00
10/22/2005 Netbank ATM Orbitz Poker Income:Expense R -387.72
10/25/2005 Netbank 5408 Card Player Cruises Poker Income:Expense R -330.00
10/14/2005 Neteller TXFR S Debit Card Poker Income:Expense -2.00
10/17/2005 Neteller Poker Tracker Poker Income:Expense -45.00
10/25/2005 Neteller Poker Ace Poker Income:Expense -25.00
10/31/2005 Neteller TXFR S Debit Card Poker Income:Expense -2.00
10/14/2005 Neteller DC ATM S Atm Poker Income:Expense -3.50
10/31/2005 Neteller DC ATM S Atm Poker Income:Expense -3.50
10/27/2005 Capital One S Party Poker Poker Income:Expense -13.29
10/28/2005 Capital One ATM Nwa NWA AIR 0122124781 CHISHOLM MN Poker Income:Expense R -10.00
10/26/2005 Party Poker S Party Poker Poker Income:Expense -13.29
TOTAL 10/1/2005 - 10/31/2005 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30

TOTAL INFLOWS 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

TOTAL OUTFLOWS -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30

NET TOTAL -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30 -860.30