selling PT databases?

[stoxtrader]

a very good NL player is selling his DB (200k hands) for his hourly rate?

worth it in general, or not?

it actually seems like an ok pricing mechanism since the value of the data is certainly correlated to the skill of the player.

[hicherbie]

With notes for stacked hands, I think this is a worthwhile purchase.

It's worth it. I know a guy who places at the same place i do wheh he's not off playing magic the gathering or killing the 30 game in Vegas, whose online database i would love to have. It's worth it.

[krishanleong]

Make sure the hhdb is included otherwise you won't be able to replay hands.

Krishan

[stoxtrader]

I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[fnord_too]

I don't know what your hourly rate is, but there is a huge factor with the NL database: There is far less discussion of a lot of topics in NL. That is, there are tons of books and lots of free and open discussion about limit. I don't think people ever hold back a lot in limit discussions on these boards for fear of giving away too much. I think this is because the game is well covered in published literature, and the limit aspect means that most decisions result in fraction of a bet EV.

In NL, there just is no good body of reference and plenty of topics that the really successful NL players won't openly discuss because they are not well understood by many and they don't want to give away their valuable insights. (This is not speculation, many have stated it explicitly in posts).

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you have a high hourly?

[stoxtrader]

we can get a ruler out and measure if you like.


fnord - great point on the value disparity between LHE and NL. I agree.

[ggbman]

I wasnt serious btw, i have no illusions of grandeur about my hourly nor do i really compare how it compares to the top ones on this forum

[JasonP530]

What do you think is the best way to go about getting the data from the NL database? Since there are so many more options in no limit, I would find it difficult to decide why the player chose one over another(and how to apply it to similar situations in the future), since the player would not be there to explain themselves. It would seem difficult to learn from a database without some sort of guide. Any suggestions?

[fnord_too]

As I said in another thread, I think you need to look for lines that are used that you don't use. Example: Checking behind the turn with TPTK. If you don't do this fairly often, but you see KKF does, you should try to figure out why he does and if you should be doing the same. I would not weigh any hand in and of itself too heavily, since it could be read dependant or the result of steaming or distraction, etc., but I would look for betting patterns that he uses frequently that you do not. They may not be good at different level games (though they may), but trying to figure out why KKF uses them will be a very rewarding exercize.

[lapoker17]

He's asking $350. If you can win one $1000 pot because of 1 thing you learned...

[Danenania]

I'd be much more willing to purchase videos of sessions from truly excellent players so I could see the HUD stats used at the time of each decision. I'd also get much more of a feel for tempo and table conditions this way (plus it's simply less hassle to go through large quantities of hands by video than through PT). Of course you couldn't charge as much for a one or two hour long video as an entire DB, but you could release a bunch of them to the point that it might even out.

[SoSo]

he's just gonna be [censored] when the first buyer sells his db on for $200 undercutting him....

[sammy_g]

You shouldn't give people ideas like this.

He said something about releasing it in one package. Ie he wants many buyers before he sells. I dont think anyone would cheat KKF anyway. I wouldnt do it if I wanted the database.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thoguth I needed validation on the pricing. to match KKF's price I would have to give a 65% discount.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. I'm just wondering which goal is more important a) selling his tracker or b) being able to have an excuse to mention his hourly rate

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. I'm just wondering which goal is more important a) selling his tracker or b) being able to have an excuse to mention his hourly rate

[/ QUOTE ]
Well since he's saying he'd be happily surprised to get $500 for his DB and he makes $1K/hr, I don't think it's really that hard to figure out which is more important to him.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. I'm just wondering which goal is more important a) selling his tracker or b) being able to have an excuse to mention his hourly rate

[/ QUOTE ]

if the moderator is wondering why i reported the thread it's because it's spam. pay for advertising if you want this public.

[ QUOTE ]

Well since he's saying he'd be happily surprised to get $500 for his DB and he makes $1K/hr, I don't think it's really that hard to figure out which is more important to him.

[/ QUOTE ]
nh

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well since he's saying he'd be happily surprised to get $500 for his DB and he makes $1K/hr, I don't think it's really that hard to figure out which is more important to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

the winrate is higher, and the price lower, but that's pretty much it.
nh

[/ QUOTE ]

[astroglide]

this thread reeks stox, i'm surprised you posted it

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread reeks stox, i'm surprised you posted it

[/ QUOTE ]

[roy_miami]

Party frowns upon selling these databases (data-mining in general) so it probably wouldn't be a good idea discussing this in public.

They forced the guy that was selling the databases on a monthly basis to shut down his website.

I'm sure if this continues to get out of hand for them they will have no alternative but to ban the use of poker tracker.

[Dantes]

if party "frowned" on datamining they would have stopped it a year ago when they first put it in. Honestly one of the stupidest moves of all time - lets let the "good" players make more money/bust more fish faster, for no reason. Idiotic.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Party frowns upon selling these databases (data-mining in general) so it probably wouldn't be a good idea discussing this in public.

They forced the guy that was selling the databases on a monthly basis to shut down his website.

I'm sure if this continues to get out of hand for them they will have no alternative but to ban the use of poker tracker.

[/ QUOTE ]

the database contains zero party hands.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread reeks stox, i'm surprised you posted it

[/ QUOTE ]

why does it reek?

I'd be thrilled if this thread produced discussion about high limit stats, database value, and winrates.

[mmcd]

I think this database would be worth far more than $500 to your regular opponents.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this database would be worth far more than $500 to your regular opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you may be right, but im willing to take that chance

you have the pricing wrong also, but im not going to post it, PM me if you want info.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, you should have just made this the first post rather than the cover up post first.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. I'm just wondering which goal is more important a) selling his tracker or b) being able to have an excuse to mention his hourly rate

[/ QUOTE ]

if the moderator is wondering why i reported the thread it's because it's spam. pay for advertising if you want this public.

[/ QUOTE ]

why was this unlocked?

[stoxtrader]

cause if you actually thought about it and posted something intelligent, this could be a good thread.

[4thstreetpete]

Anyone else think that 100K hands isn't really a true measure of your hourly rate? A lot of people in this forum can probably put 100K hands in about 2 or 3 months. If the majority of db is shorthanded (which I'm assuming it is at limits 150/300 - 300/600) then you can probably put that many hands in sooner.

If you're selling your db, how is a few months worth of HHs be an accurate guage of your WR? No doubt stox is one of the best players out there but many players have months where they ran hot and go on a downswing others. Selling a db with only 100K hands for 50% of what you say is your hourly rate is silly.

[stoxtrader]

I likely have run hot this year. Here's hoping for half my expectation next year.

KKF is selling a 200k DB for 100% of his hourly rate, is that also overpriced then? You inquired privately about it and publicly posted the incorrect pricing pete. the price is 33% of the hourly rate for the DB. Yes there are sample size issues.

also I dont think i ever said "my winrate" I said the winrate for the DB, but the start of this thread had a different thrust anyways and it took a turn I wasnt hoping for.

how would you go about pricing something like this? what variables would increase or decrease the price? What makes it a valuable teaching tool?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
cause if you actually thought about it and posted something intelligent, this could be a good thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

HI. I'M WONDERING WHAT PERCENTAGE PEOPLE THINK IS A FAIR AMOUNT FOR AFFILIATES TO KEEP WHEN GIVING RAKE BACK BECAUSE I CURRENTLY ONLY KEEP 3% WHICH IS LESS THAN XYZ OVER THERE. IS THIS FAIR? HOW DO I GO ABOUT DECIDING THIS? HOW DO I WORK OUT THE VALUE OF WHAT I DO?

Roll on the intelligent discussion!

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
I likely have run hot this year. Here's hoping for half my expectation next year.

KKF is selling a 200k DB for 100% of his hourly rate, is that also overpriced then? You inquired privately about it and publicly posted the incorrect pricing pete. the price is 33% of the hourly rate for the DB. Yes there are sample size issues.

also I dont think i ever said "my winrate" I said the winrate for the DB, but the start of this thread had a different thrust anyways and it took a turn I wasnt hoping for.

how would you go about pricing something like this? what variables would increase or decrease the price? What makes it a valuable teaching tool?

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies for posting the incorrect pricing percentage. I contacted you earlier because any learning tool that I could get my hands on would be of benefit to me. I have no doubts about your skill level nor do I think the DB is overpriced as I have no problems with the money. My issue is the sample size.

So you had a few great months, what about the rest of the year? A valuable learning tool to me would be a more accurate database where you maintain this WR for many more hands. To me it looks like you took a snapshot of the last 100K hands where you did well and decided hmmm...I won $1k/100 during that 100K hands so my DB is worth 33%. I do not know what KKF's WR is nor do I care. Nonetheless his DB is at least twice the size of yours and to me that indicates a more accurate picture.

As it is right now I fail to see the value in it, sorry. I don't know what your intentions are for posting this thread but if you're serious about coaching maybe what Dane S said earlier had some merit. A video with hud stats on players would probably be a better idea.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I likely have run hot this year. Here's hoping for half my expectation next year.

KKF is selling a 200k DB for 100% of his hourly rate, is that also overpriced then? You inquired privately about it and publicly posted the incorrect pricing pete. the price is 33% of the hourly rate for the DB. Yes there are sample size issues.

also I dont think i ever said "my winrate" I said the winrate for the DB, but the start of this thread had a different thrust anyways and it took a turn I wasnt hoping for.

how would you go about pricing something like this? what variables would increase or decrease the price? What makes it a valuable teaching tool?

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies for posting the incorrect pricing percentage. I contacted you earlier because any learning tool that I could get my hands on would be of benefit to me. I have no doubts about your skill level nor do I think the DB is overpriced as I have no problems with the money. My issue is the sample size.

So you had a few great months, what about the rest of the year? A valuable learning tool to me would be a more accurate database where you maintain this WR for many more hands. To me it looks like you took a snapshot of the last 100K hands where you did well and decided hmmm...I won $1k/100 during that 100K hands so my DB is worth 33%. I do not know what KKF's WR is nor do I care. Nonetheless his DB is at least twice the size of yours and to me that indicates a more accurate picture.

As it is right now I fail to see the value in it, sorry. I don't know what your intentions are for posting this thread but if you're serious about coaching maybe what Dane S said earlier had some merit. A video with hud stats on players would probably be a better idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stox doesn't use a HUD for the players he plays with on a regular basis. Gametime is all thats available.

Barron

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I likely have run hot this year. Here's hoping for half my expectation next year.

KKF is selling a 200k DB for 100% of his hourly rate, is that also overpriced then? You inquired privately about it and publicly posted the incorrect pricing pete. the price is 33% of the hourly rate for the DB. Yes there are sample size issues.

also I dont think i ever said "my winrate" I said the winrate for the DB, but the start of this thread had a different thrust anyways and it took a turn I wasnt hoping for.

how would you go about pricing something like this? what variables would increase or decrease the price? What makes it a valuable teaching tool?

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies for posting the incorrect pricing percentage. I contacted you earlier because any learning tool that I could get my hands on would be of benefit to me. I have no doubts about your skill level nor do I think the DB is overpriced as I have no problems with the money. My issue is the sample size.

So you had a few great months, what about the rest of the year? A valuable learning tool to me would be a more accurate database where you maintain this WR for many more hands. To me it looks like you took a snapshot of the last 100K hands where you did well and decided hmmm...I won $1k/100 during that 100K hands so my DB is worth 33%. I do not know what KKF's WR is nor do I care. Nonetheless his DB is at least twice the size of yours and to me that indicates a more accurate picture.

As it is right now I fail to see the value in it, sorry. I don't know what your intentions are for posting this thread but if you're serious about coaching maybe what Dane S said earlier had some merit. A video with hud stats on players would probably be a better idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stox doesn't use a HUD for the players he plays with on a regular basis. Gametime is all thats available.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, thank you. Then like I said earlier, a larger sample size DB is probably a good idea.

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
As it is right now I fail to see the value in it, sorry. I don't know what your intentions are for posting this thread but if you're serious about coaching maybe what Dane S said earlier had some merit. A video with hud stats on players would probably be a better idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't some gigantic money making scheme. If you are interested in these limits and more specifically some of the players, it's probably worth it. I agree this thread sucks, but only because of the responses.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this database would be worth far more than $500 to your regular opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you may be right, but im willing to take that chance

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take one.

PM me for details.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this database would be worth far more than $500 to your regular opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you may be right, but im willing to take that chance

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take one.

PM me for details.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome.

Barron

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree this thread sucks, but only because of the responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for you input. It has made this thread so much better.

Seriously, why are there so many arrogant jerks who come on the mid/high forums who add no value to any the threads?

it's like a disease around here...and it's contagious

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for you input. It has made this thread so much better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you don't think its worth it. DON'T BUY IT, instead of complaining about the price. What is the difference of 50-100 dollars to someone who plays 50/100 and higher. Not much. You are right, there are a lot of arrogant jerks that post here. Next time someone wants to sell something poker related, hopefully he'll remember to run it by pricing guru 4thstreetpete. Then we can avoid this kind of pointless discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this database would be worth far more than $500 to your regular opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you may be right, but im willing to take that chance

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take one.

PM me for details.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

[Steve Giufre]

Dont get me wrong Stox is a great guy and I dont personally have anything problem with him posting this. But you delete one of JV's threads, even though he has been posting here before you knew how to spell poker, and leave this which, no offense Stox, is basically just advanced spam. If this post were made by Joe Blow it would have been gone two days ago. Just because you like to talk strategy with a guy, I dont think it should give you a reason to keep a thread like this around when you are deleleting and locking others that are more less harmless.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont get me wrong Stox is a great guy and I dont personally have anything problem with him posting this. But you delete one of JV's threads, even though he has been posting here before you knew how to spell poker, and leave this which, no offense Stox, is basically just advanced spam. If this post were made by Joe Blow it would have been gone two days ago. Just because you like to talk strategy with a guy, I dont think it should give you a reason to keep a thread like this around when you are deleleting and locking others that are more less harmless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think the point of this thread was stox trying to sell his PT database. It turned into that, and now this thread is basically horrible save for the Erik1234 post. Nevertheless, there are a few hand posts on the first page of mid/hi that would make better candidates for deletion IMHO. Also, I'm pretty sure the JV thread would have gotten unlocked had the Prock thread not emerged.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]

I really don't think the point of this thread was stox trying to sell his PT database.

[/ QUOTE ]

As the great Ron Burgandy once said, agree to disagree.

[4thstreetpete]

tongni if this thread sucks so much why the fuk are you on here a second time reading responses? seriously just stfu.

You do not know what stox and I discussed over PM. Stox did ask what it would take to make a valuable learning tool on one of his posts and a few of us gave him some suggestions. I don't recall anyone here complaining about the price. If stox's DB is not something you'd be interested in than stfu if you have nothing to add.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this thread reeks stox, i'm surprised you posted it

[/ QUOTE ]

why does it reek?

I'd be thrilled if this thread produced discussion about high limit stats, database value, and winrates.

[/ QUOTE ]

It reeks because it is just you bragging about a winrate that you seem to believe is actually your earn in these games. And it turned out the initial question was just a setup for some spam and bragging.

Your responses in this thread make me even more sure that you are yet another decent player who has run very hot and has convinced himself that he is actually better than all the other guys who play as well as you do but have not run as hot as you.

I know many LHE and NLHE players who suck, but have run up a wins of a few hundred thousand before giving most of it back. I'm not saying you are in this category, but your responses in this thread seem to point towards a lesser understanding of certain aspects of the game than I thought you had.

[Nikla]

I'll take one stox.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont get me wrong Stox is a great guy and I dont personally have anything problem with him posting this. But you delete one of JV's threads, even though he has been posting here before you knew how to spell poker, and leave this which, no offense Stox, is basically just advanced spam. If this post were made by Joe Blow it would have been gone two days ago. Just because you like to talk strategy with a guy, I dont think it should give you a reason to keep a thread like this around when you are deleleting and locking others that are more less harmless.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is discussing the value of a database.

JV's thread was a picture of a bum with a smile. do you see Prock's thread locked or moved?

Barron

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

this thread is discussing the value of a database.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, glad we both agree on that.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont get me wrong Stox is a great guy and I dont personally have anything problem with him posting this. But you delete one of JV's threads, even though he has been posting here before you knew how to spell poker, and leave this which, no offense Stox, is basically just advanced spam. If this post were made by Joe Blow it would have been gone two days ago. Just because you like to talk strategy with a guy, I dont think it should give you a reason to keep a thread like this around when you are deleleting and locking others that are more less harmless.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is discussing the value of a database.

JV's thread was a picture of a bum with a smile. do you see Prock's thread locked or moved?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured your first job as moderator would be to keep out spam, advertising etc. Not to get rid of funny harmless threads by guys who have been around here forever. What does Stox's post have to do with high limit holdem? I know you are smart guy which is why you cant possibly convince me that Stox posted that for any other reason than to make an attempt at making money from selling his database. I dont really blame him and he is entitled to post anything he wants, but its supposed to be your job to filter what gets through and what doesnt. Personally, I think its better to only get rid of the really out of place stuff, but when you delete/move all the other non content threads and leave this one I think it reflects poorly on you all things considered.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
What does Stox's post have to do with high limit holdem? I know you are smart guy which is why you cant possibly convince me that Stox posted that for any other reason than to make an attempt at making money from selling his database.

[/ QUOTE ]

What can Stox expect to make from this whole thing? 4-5 big bets? 10 big bets? Not anything close to making up for the fact his very tough regular opponents could get to see his hole cards for every hand he's played over the last several months. At least this is why I think stox wasn't trying to make money with his post. If I'm wrong and he does end up putting his database out there, I'm sure it in the end it won't end up as money making transaction.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does Stox's post have to do with high limit holdem? I know you are smart guy which is why you cant possibly convince me that Stox posted that for any other reason than to make an attempt at making money from selling his database.

[/ QUOTE ]

What can Stox expect to make from this whole thing? 4-5 big bets? 10 big bets? Not anything close to making up for the fact his very tough regular opponents could get to see his hole cards for every hand he's played over the last several months. At least this is why I think stox wasn't trying to make money with his post. If I'm wrong and he does end up putting his database out there, I'm sure it in the end it won't end up as money making transaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point of this thread was absolutely so that Stox could give an example of how much databases could go for and then offer his at the a similar rate.

[Subby]

It seems crazy to me that any player that played in tough, high-limit games with a lineup of fairly regular opponents would be interested in selling such telling information about their games. What am I missing here?

[mmcd]

He'd be much better off trying to sell a big 15/30-30/60 database, then. I think the market for his high limit database would be pretty limited. Although I'm sure there are probably some out there that actually believe watching how stox plays in shorthanded 300/600 games will somehow help them beat 30/60.

[stoxtrader]

El Diablo - I am sorry you feel that way. I am proud of my results this year, but I don't feel I need outside validation on them, or corroboration on my future expectation, I think I can guage those for myself and make intelligent decisions about them.

Contrary to popular belief, I had no ulterior motive when writing this original post, and I wrote the selling post without realizing what a stir it would cause. The whole half-thought out point of this thread at the time it started for me was valueing ways to learn and improve - a difficult thing for people to do at ALL levels.

[ QUOTE ]
your responses in this thread seem to point towards a lesser understanding of certain aspects of the game than I thought you had.


[/ QUOTE ]

you imply that you have a "greater understanding" of certain aspects of the game (limit hold-em). I would really, really like to know what aspects those are and where I am lacking. The more specific the better. I really hope it's not a lecture on variance or sample size.

[stoxtrader]

To the mod haters.

This thread was locked at one point by the mods, I'm assuming because 800gambler reported it as spam. I objected, including in my arguement the point that commercial software and other laerning tools are posted about all the time in forums here, and there is a similar thread in MHNL. At the time I objected I also hoped some decent discussion would come out of this as well.

Really, if anyone has a noteworthy database, or wants to do work on mine, please let me know - I'm excited by some of the contacts I've already made through this thread and hope for others.

The mods are trying to do their job best they can, and evidently I have put them in a tough spot.

If you dont like this thread, it is completely within your right to not read it, or put me on ignore.

If you really really are opposed to this thread and it's very important to you, go ahead and post about it here or notify mat sklansky, he has final say in this stuff anyways (I imagine).

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
you imply that you have a "greater understanding" of certain aspects of the game (limit hold-em). I would really, really like to know what aspects those are and where I am lacking. The more specific the better. I really hope it's not a lecture on variance or sample size.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so let me get this straight. You earn over $1000/hr in games 50/100 and bigger with a relatively small player base, and you are selling a database of your play illustrating how you play with that much of an edge against these players for $500 or so. Is that correct?

[stoxtrader]

you are answering my question with a question. I would prefer an answer to my original question, but I will answer yours first.

I fear you will nitpick my response, so I want to be very clear.

That I have earned over 1k/hour in games 50/100 and higher this year is true.

your statement that "you earn over 1k an hour" may or may not be true, that implies future expectation.

I am selling a pokertrackder database of my play? true.

Illustrating how I play? to the extent hand histories represent my decision making process, true.

Illustrating how and why I make decisions? doubtful.

You are implying this serves to diminish whatever edge I might have? arguable.

However, it is certainly my right to torpedo my own high stakes poker career, should I choose to do that, but I do appreciate your concern.

back to my original question - the part where you have a greater understanding. Can you elaborate?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can? Yes.

Do I care to? No.

[4thstreetpete]

This is getting good.

*grabs popcorn*

[DeeJ]

Dcifr, being a mod is a thankless task. Thank you for doing it. Now "mostly thankless".

[stoxtrader]

Can you elaborate?

Can? Yes.

Do I care to? No.

you certainly are not shy about expounding your opinnion often and on a wide range of topics.

Forgive me if I'm curious in this instance cause either, you can improve my game, which I would be very happy about, or you have overstepped, and said something that you cannot back-up. Refusing to specify is implied confirmation of the latter. Not wanting to realease "secrets" about hold-em also doesnt sit to well as an excuse for not elaborating. Remember, I'm the guy willing to share his hands.

I'm not going to let this become more of a soap opera than it already is, I saw how you incessantly berated Barron in the magazine forum, rightly or wrongly. I will stop participating in this "I can tell you if I wanted to but I don't want to so I'm not going to" type of arguement going forward.

If you choose to engage this discussion with a thoughtful viewpoint and original contribution, even to disparage me or show me the error of my ways, I will happily respond.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
"I can tell you if I wanted to but I don't want to so I'm not going to"

[/ QUOTE ]

mmm, wasn't BarronVGT's 'reason' (for not being mathematically specific in his defence of the way he played the Frank hand) the very same thing? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I'd also like to know what El D is really trying to say...

by the way, people are trying to get together 2 buy the stox db as a collective and redistribute for value /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[i think you might want to drop the entire idea...]

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're selling your db, how is a few months worth of HHs be an accurate guage of your WR? No doubt stox is one of the best players out there

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to learn sth you dont need a sample which give accurate picture of WR , all you need is a sample that give you accurate picture of strategies used by our Hero.
I think 100k hands is more than enough for the rest of your life (you wont revise all these hands anyway).
Btw if I played limit I would be thrilled to buy DB of a guy who is "one of the best players out there" but I dont. Probably because I cant respect my opponents, or whatever...

Best wishes

[MarkD]

Just to hi-jack this thread a bit.

El Diablo,

If you still have your 10/20-6 max database I would be interested in purchasing it from you, feel free to post about pricing to gauge what it would be worth.

I would also be interested in purchasing Schneids 10/20, or any other really big winner in that game over a large number of hands.

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
He'd be much better off trying to sell a big 15/30-30/60 database, then. I think the market for his high limit database would be pretty limited. Although I'm sure there are probably some out there that actually believe watching how stox plays in shorthanded 300/600 games will somehow help them beat 30/60.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would actually be interested in purchasing a mid-stakes database. Not that this one isn't interesting as well, but somehow I get the feeling that hands from 100/200 won't be as applicable for the PP 15/30 games I play.

[KaneKungFu123]

from 180K hands to 200K hands my winrate dropped from 3.6-3ptbb/100.... so if you are using the hourly rate method it'd probably be a good idea for you to sell now because people on these forums like big numbers.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll sell my PT DB to anyone for the huge discount of 50% off my hourly rate, its around 100k hands of limit holdem from like april of this year. Limits 50/100 and higher. I would be pleasantly surpised if anyone is willing to pay the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

You arent worried about your competition here?

I think in NL its easier to hide your cards. the people who look at my DB will find out that in a certain situation I can have -- a bunch of different hands...

plus 10/20 NL has a huge playing field. plus i am going to have a new account there when i start playing again.

i think you are giving way too much away here to your opposition.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Dcifr, being a mod is a thankless task. Thank you for doing it. Now "mostly thankless".

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Im sure Barron is doing is best. I like Stox and Dcifr a lot, this just jumped out at me as something that was really out of place. I guess I have made my point, so there is no use carrying on.

[CardSharpCook]

Forgive me for not participating in the flame wars, but I actually find the proposed question to be interesting. How much is the DB of a successful player worth?

Well, PT costs $50, PAHUD costs $25, LHEFAP costs about $22. These are all tools that must be implemented by the purchaser. Without study and thought, PT is worthless. If you don't pay attention to PAHUD and view the correct stats, it too is worthless. If you don't crack open the book, LHEFAP can't make you a better player. Pat, Josh, and David aren't going to sit down and help you become a better player through explanations of how to use their product (though all 3 provide excellent customer service). How is a poker DB any different? Will having this DB make you a better player? Well, that depends on the amount of work you are willing to put into it. Is it worth more or less than PT, PAHUD, or LHEFAP? Well, in my opinion, it is worth a bit less. First, PAHUD, and the DB both depend on PT to provide any value whatsoever. LHEFAP provides written analysis of hands, explanations for plays, and outlines a strategy for successful Limit play. A DB does none of this.

Other problems with a DB? Well if someone were to look at my DBs, they'd see ridiculous bluffs, dubious value bets, and a couple overanxious folds. A thinking player would be rightly baffled at some of these plays, but... "PokerJohn loves to be aggressive, but will fold 70% of the time when I reraise the turn. Oh, Xanchoi will call with ace-high on this 4-flush board. My underpair of jacks is good for a VB here. HAHA, that's Moramud! He can only raise with 2P or better. I may have some outs, or maybe not."

Is there value in a DB of a winning player? Of course. But as always, finding that value is up to the player. Of course, there is also value in having the HH for several thousands hands for several thousand players at a limit you plan to join.

What would I pay for this DB? $20. I mean no slight to Stox in this. I think it is a valuable product and he is surely a fine player. But let's put it in perspective. A DB is not worth nearly as much as they other three products I mentioned. What should he sell it for? Whatever the market will bear.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
What would I pay for this DB? $20. I mean no slight to Stox in this. I think it is a valuable product and he is surely a fine player. But let's put it in perspective. A DB is not worth nearly as much as they other three products I mentioned. What should he sell it for? Whatever the market will bear.

[/ QUOTE ]


You have an excellent post where I had nothing that I disagreed with, but I believe you left out one important factor:

Rarity.

(And, for those that don't know, I couldn't pick stox out of a two-man line-up.)

Those items you listed have fixed costs and anyone can purchase it. While you may find lesser value in something else, this isn't something that is floating around with thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of copies.

Having a tool that not everyone and his sister has access to has its own value.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[ QUOTE ]
... Of course, there is also value in having the HH for several thousands hands for several thousand players at a limit you plan to join....

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the dynamic for valuing this type of data? I can see that it provides different information from a DB containing a "Pro's" hands.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]

What would I pay for this DB? $20.


[/ QUOTE ]

you must be friends with the 1800gambler.

[Paluka]

I've been thinking about this thread, and it actually makes no sense to price a DB based on hourly rate. It should be done on rate per hand. I don't care how many tables the guy plays.

It makes no sence for stoxtrader to sell it for that price if he doesnt intend to change his style completely or perhaps change name. KKF is right imo. The value for a certain players would be too great. I mean its not even a BB.. I would pay that price instantly if I played with stoxtrader on a regular basis.

[lapoker17]

hilarious

[ QUOTE ]
A DB is not worth nearly as much as they other three products I mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make the assumption that a player's DB is targetting the same market as the other tools. This is not necessarily the case.

Let's say someone's true winrate at ultra-high limit online Hold'em games is 1bb/100. This implies that he gets pretty much ZERO value from books, which are not geared toward this caliber of player, and often not even written by this caliber of player. However, let's say he is given the opportunity to buy a DB from a player who's true winrate in the same games is 1.5bb/100. How much is he willing to pay for this? What other tools are competing with this DB to potentially raise his winrate??

To summarize, such a DB may belong to a niche market that the other tools you mention do NOT.

-v

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about this thread, and it actually makes no sense to price a DB based on hourly rate. It should be done on rate per hand. I don't care how many tables the guy plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. Filtering out for quanity of hourly play is a perfect idea. Quality of play per hand is a much better metric. I get about 192 hands per hour at these limits.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, PT costs $50, PAHUD costs $25, LHEFAP costs about $22.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A DB is not worth nearly as much as they other three products I mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not. But I think all three of those products sell for MUCH less than their true value, particularly to a mid-, high-stakes player. I know that PT and PAHUD, for instance, make me wayyy more than the $75 I paid for them. So just saying that stox's DB is less intrinsicly valuable doesn't mean it's not worth what he is asking because other products cost less.

If something in stox's DB increases your winrate by a fraction of a BB/100, it will pay for itself quickly, even at 15/30.

I'm also surprised that stox would sell this information. The player pool at the nosebleed limits online is so small. Surely, this would put a dent in his expectation if his opponents got a hold of it.

[stoxtrader]

People keep saying that releasing my database will devestate my earn. I obviously don't agree, everyone i play already has a snapshot of it anyways.

I would love if someone could point out specific ways this would be a large advantage and how somone would use this information to exploit me.

While I would like to examine my opponents DBs it would be from the point of view of improving my own play, not gaining an edge on them when we sit together.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can? Yes.

Do I care to? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

you certainly are not shy about expounding your opinnion often and on a wide range of topics.

Forgive me if I'm curious in this instance cause either, you can improve my game, which I would be very happy about, or you have overstepped, and said something that you cannot back-up. Refusing to specify is implied confirmation of the latter. Not wanting to realease "secrets" about hold-em also doesnt sit to well as an excuse for not elaborating. Remember, I'm the guy willing to share his hands.

I'm not going to let this become more of a soap opera than it already is, I saw how you incessantly berated Barron in the magazine forum, rightly or wrongly. I will stop participating in this "I can tell you if I wanted to but I don't want to so I'm not going to" type of arguement going forward.

If you choose to engage this discussion with a thoughtful viewpoint and original contribution, even to disparage me or show me the error of my ways, I will happily respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I believe a number of your statements in this thread point to a lack of mathematical understanding as to both variance and where your edge comes from. I might be wrong here, but that's how I read them.

2. I do not care to go into detail about specific areas where I suspect that might manifest itself in your game. I have some guesses, but they are nothing more than that. Yes, you said you are willing to share hands. I am not sure what that has to do with me wanting to share information, though. I have contributed a lot to help people on multiple of these forums over the years. I also hold plenty back and have said that many times. That is because quite a bit of what I hold back is stuff that I do not think many players will be able to figure out for themselves.

3. As for value of DBs, I would probably have paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $10-20k for Mahatma's PT DB over a certain time span.

[Ulysses]

FYI, stox, here's a chat I had w/ one of your regular opponents. Perhaps it answers your question a little better.

[17:46] d: i think it is idiotic to think that you have a $1000+/hr edge against a small player pool in ultra high limit
[17:46] d: that is not hurt noticeably at all
[17:46] d: by giving up a database of your play
[17:47] right i agree. if i saw his DB and studied his play, i would probably gain a ton on what his tendencies are, not to mention getting a total grip on how he plays in blind steal situations
[17:47] he'd have to totally change, or he'd be [censored]
[17:47] and i doubt he can just totally change his style and have it not effect his EV in a bad way
[17:47] d: exactly
[17:47] d: it is like, it makes me totally question his understanding of the game
[17:48] d: if he DOES have this edge
[17:48] d: the edge comes from this style of play
[17:48] d: and his freq's being right
[17:48] d: against this player pool., etc.
[17:48] d: to think that he can show them his frequencies/ranges
[17:48] d: and then adapt to a new set
[17:48] d: w/ same edge
[17:48] d: just shows that he is prob another good player riding great variance
[17:49] i think it comes down to him being extremely full of himself and thinking that he can just flat out outplay anyone if both people are aware of the same previous histories
[17:49] so he thinks he'll just "take it to level 4 when they're expecting level 3" or whatever, and he'll decide correctly all the time

soxtrader, we must play a lot together. Who are you on UB and pokerroom and prima?

What do you think about my play?

-Eugene

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Wouldn't players knowing your more or less exact hand ranges in every position, especially steal and blind make it much easier to play against you?

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, stox, here's a chat I had w/ one of your regular opponents. Perhaps it answers your question a little better.

[17:46] d: i think it is idiotic to think that you have a $1000+/hr edge against a small player pool in ultra high limit
[17:46] d: that is not hurt noticeably at all
[17:46] d: by giving up a database of your play
[17:47] right i agree. if i saw his DB and studied his play, i would probably gain a ton on what his tendencies are, not to mention getting a total grip on how he plays in blind steal situations
[17:47] he'd have to totally change, or he'd be [censored]
[17:47] and i doubt he can just totally change his style and have it not effect his EV in a bad way
[17:47] d: exactly
[17:47] d: it is like, it makes me totally question his understanding of the game
[17:48] d: if he DOES have this edge
[17:48] d: the edge comes from this style of play
[17:48] d: and his freq's being right
[17:48] d: against this player pool., etc.
[17:48] d: to think that he can show them his frequencies/ranges
[17:48] d: and then adapt to a new set
[17:48] d: w/ same edge
[17:48] d: just shows that he is prob another good player riding great variance
[17:49] i think it comes down to him being extremely full of himself and thinking that he can just flat out outplay anyone if both people are aware of the same previous histories
[17:49] so he thinks he'll just "take it to level 4 when they're expecting level 3" or whatever, and he'll decide correctly all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

The content here is definitely discussion provoking. Couple points from my side.

Of the people that i have been in contact with about the DB, only 1 plays in the same games as me, and he does not play the 150/300 pound game. I know the others not to be higher players - while it is possible an opponent of mine will try to buy through an intermediary, I don't think it has happened thus far. That would be flattering though.

If you/he is correct and my edge is noticeably hurt, this person you spoke with is welcome to contact me and do the necessary work to learn my game, he's had since the start of this thread so far and has chosen not to, I can only assume through laziness or thinking his time is better spent elsewhere, or that it actually is not a huge advanatage to have this info (more on that last later). Or maybe a combination of all three (which i suspect is the case for the players I play that know of this thread). Some are also simply too proud to ask for it, many probably don't need it, want it, or even care about it. Maybe he is busily looking at it right now somehow, but I doubt it.

On to the part where I disagree that the DB significantly hurts whatever edge I feel I have:

My ranges, especially for stealing and defense should converge relatively quickly, but they are also dynamic, and definitely player dependant. It is certainly possible if someone like erik1234 or borken or (insert good high player here) decided to buy the DB and make the effort to look through all the hands, they could gain edge by dissecting post-flop play. I would be flattered if one did. I don't think it will hurt my overall edge significantly.

I think what you are basically saying is that my expectation is inflated though I have never mentioned what I think my expectation is, only the results I have experienced. The fact that I'm distributing the DB is evidence that I either believe it is inflated or don't understand poker which corroborates your theory that my results have been variance friendly. In any event this is certainly an arguement for selling the DB as quickly as possible.

I guess my main points would be:

1 - I dont need a PT database to get approximate ranges on all my opponents that are pretty good. Even my PT database won't give exact ranges, as I can play hands differently from exactly the same spot at the table depending on who is on my right, left and in the blinds. So there are a lot of variables there.

2 - I think someone is likely to get misinformation from the info and just as likely to use it incorrectly as correctly - My stealing and defending ranges are wide to begin with, but vary significantly player dependant. So I guess the best someone could do would be to filter for those situatinos vs them exactly and go from there. Reviewing all my hands vs them from my point of view could certainly help. But, that brings me to my third point.

3 - part of playing optimal poker in my opinion is to play non-exploitable poker. So stealing the exactly correct amount of time as dictated by game stucture and hand probabilities so that it does not help the BB in defending, KNOWING what your range is. I steal about 40% of the time overall, though that is a combination for CO, Button and SB first-in. Post on 2+2 what the correct BB defending range is versus a 40% stealer and you will likely get a few different answers. Post an exact button stealing range and ask what the correct defending range is and you are STILL likely to get different answers.

4 - I already have a significant number of hands on many of the good player's and can look at more than I care to without their DBs. More than a couple hundred hands of going throught the whole hand with the detail needed to actually take knowledge vs that player to the table is time consuming, and I would rather just play, and I assume most of my opponents would also.

Post-flop analysis is complex. Say I c/r the turn defending from the BB against a steal with the correct frequency on a semi-bluff vs a made hand. If the frequency of monster vs made hand vs semi-bluff vs bluff is exactly correct, or "optimal" it doesnt matter if my opponent knows what that frequency is. I'm not saying I am optimal, I strive to approach it. In any event, it is difficult to triangulate that information enough to get specific game, helping information.

I still think I don't hurt myself by distributing my hands. That is not to say that I don't think information about my opponents is not valuable. far from it. But The additional value gained from my DB over the amount of information my opponents already have from the hands they have played with me, minus the price of the DB to them, and the time spent studying the DB and assuming they can extract useful information correctly from it makes the equation seem fine to me, on the giving end.

Lastly, I gain by distribution in the sense that knowledgeable players can, and already have, looked at my DB and ask about specific things I do, why, and how. It's a great way to refine your thinking and check for leaks.

[mmcd]

Stox,

Good points, especially number 4. But to the extent there are players in these games that would say, "Man, that stoxtrader really gives me fits", could they not spend spend some replaying games and adjust their play to start calling you down or playing back at you with a more correct frequency? The best players probably wouldn't want to invest the time to conduct a detailed analysis of your play, but whichever players are your bread and butter in these games might start playing much better against you.

[ QUOTE ]
Of the people that i have been in contact with about the DB, only 1 plays in the same games as me, and he does not play the 150/300 pound game. I know the others not to be higher players

[/ QUOTE ]

How much do you feel the "others" would benefit? How would it change if they were to play 5/10 or 15/30?

[ggbman]

Stox, I think any player who is of the calibur to be a solid winning player in a game 1/2 or above knows the game well enough to make more than enough information from your database to make this a losing a proposition for you if you play in the same game as them.

Also, FWIW, i also think you have handled yourself well in regards to some of the comments made in this thread. It could have quickly turned into a pissing match but you seem open minded to the idea that selling the DB might not be beneficial to you. That said, i am pretty confident it would be if it falls into the hands of anyone playing against you on a regular basis.

Gabe

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of the people that i have been in contact with about the DB, only 1 plays in the same games as me, and he does not play the 150/300 pound game. I know the others not to be higher players

[/ QUOTE ]


How much do you feel the "others" would benefit? How would it change if they were to play 5/10 or 15/30?

[/ QUOTE ]

For other players that do not play in games with me I think it is a valuable learning tool to see stats of a successful database and being able to filter for # of players at a table and see stealing and defending plays and watch how certain hands are played at higher limits.

So I think it's a good learning tool for someone looking to improve. I do not think its a good tool for somone looking to beat me. There are many who disagree.