Pocket jacks against an overcard c/r on flop? [Archive]

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11-04-2005, 12:31 PM

I married myself to the pocket jacks. Should I have released on the flop when villain c/r'd? the turn? Played it through?

Only 35 hands on villain 20/9/3.5...

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB.

ErrantNight

11-04-2005, 12:36 PM

edited to replace my advocation of every single turn line.

this looks a lot like a weak Q, but against a decent aggressive tag this could also be worse pocket pairs (particularly 88 and 99)

given that, a turn raise will get you raised by better hands, and fold worse pocket pairs, and the pot is large enough that showing down seems alright.

so despite my initial response... if you read it... i think calling down is best.

W. Deranged

11-04-2005, 12:48 PM

Calling down is fine. The key point is that you are only folding worse hands much of the time by raising the turn.

This is a welcome opportunity to discuss free showdown raises. This situation is one where calling down is probably better, but if any of the following changed a turn raise/free-showdown line is better:

1. Villain is weak/somewhat skilled/whather, and might fold a weak Q to you. Then raising the turn is much better because you allow yourself to win a portion of the time you don't have the best hand. (This can be one of the best "bluffing" situations in poker, in that by putting in two bets on the turn that you intended to put in on the turn and river anyway, you may encourage an opponent to make a huge mistake.)

2. If the pot were not heads-up, particularly if there are players left to act behind you. Then raising the turn is probably better for protection purposes. You'd love opponents to fold overcards. Even if an opponent had called between you and the original bettor, raising is usually better to encourage the intermediate caller to pay double to draw or whatever.

11-04-2005, 01:03 PM

The check raise implies a strong hand. I don't think he has a weak Q. You don't c/r with a weak queen here. The line he takes is what a good strong player with 2 pair (big blind special)would take (Probably bottom 2 pair). I don't fold to the C/R because I don't want to appear THAT tight. I do fold to the turn bet though. He either has Queens up or a boat. If he pulls a lone 7 out of his bag, God Bless him as I will be stacking his chips before the night is over.

LLL

droolie

11-04-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The check raise implies a strong hand. I don't think he has a weak Q. You don't c/r with a weak queen here. The line he takes is what a good strong player with 2 pair (big blind special)would take (Probably bottom 2 pair). I don't fold to the C/R because I don't want to appear THAT tight. I do fold to the turn bet though. He either has Queens up or a boat. If he pulls a lone 7 out of his bag, God Bless him as I will be stacking his chips before the night is over.

LLL

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The C/R screams "PROTECTION" which is what you want if you have a vulnerbale hand like top pair and a big field. A stonger hand would likely lead the flop and hope to be able to 3-bet when hero raises.

ErrantNight

11-04-2005, 01:18 PM

ummm... this is precisely how you should play a weak queen on the flop.

W. Deranged

11-04-2005, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The check raise implies a strong hand. I don't think he has a weak Q. You don't c/r with a weak queen here. The line he takes is what a good strong player with 2 pair (big blind special)would take (Probably bottom 2 pair). I don't fold to the C/R because I don't want to appear THAT tight. I do fold to the turn bet though. He either has Queens up or a boat. If he pulls a lone 7 out of his bag, God Bless him as I will be stacking his chips before the night is over.

LLL

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

The check-raise here is often a Q and only a Q. Plenty of players will automatically check-raise top pair from early position (and are very often correct in doing so). At the same time, villain might be taking the same line with 88-TT, and possibly even 66 or something. So we decide to see a showdown. Note that the pot's pretty big here. We don't need to win a showdown that often to be good here.

11-04-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I married myself to the pocket jacks. Should I have released on the flop when villain c/r'd? the turn? Played it through?

Only 35 hands on villain 20/9/3.5...

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah these spots really suck w/o reads. I call down, usually you will be shown a queen, hopefully it's smaller PP enough to make it +EV.

Akimka

11-04-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ummm... this is precisely how you should play a weak queen on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] I think villian can have any queen. Right?

Piiop

11-04-2005, 03:08 PM

Nice hand. Like others have already said, villain could have TT-88, 66, a 7, as well as any hand that beats you. Pot's good size - call down good.

ErrantNight

11-04-2005, 03:27 PM

yes

Spook

11-04-2005, 03:54 PM

What about just calling preflop?
Oddly enough when you raise preflop this, you are realing hoping that both blinds call you and then are playing simply for set value.
If you don't raise, it is still a desirable pot, but an overcard with a backdoor draw, or a hand like middle pair aren't getting the same odds to call you on the flop. - Which a lot of the limpers might have.

W. Deranged

11-04-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about just calling preflop?
Oddly enough when you raise preflop this, you are realing hoping that both blinds call you and then are playing simply for set value.
If you don't raise, it is still a desirable pot, but an overcard with a backdoor draw, or a hand like middle pair aren't getting the same odds to call you on the flop. - Which a lot of the limpers might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your understanding of the pre-flop considerations here is very wrong.

We raise pre-flop because we have a hand that will win MUCH more than it's fair share of pots against a field this size. We raise because, not only does our hand have showdown value and can win unimproved, but because it can make a set and potentially win a monster pot. We raise because we have the fourth best hand in hold'em.

You are also misapplying the concept of pot distortion. Sure, opponents with weak hands may have odds to call later on because we've bloated the pot. But, they'd usually call anyway because they're small stakes players and suck. The fact that some flop/turn calls might be marginally correct doesn't really matter. Sure, technically "they win" in the fundamental theorem sense because they are playing correctly later on, but we've already made so many Sklansky buck by pushing our pre-flop equity edge that we don't really care.

Hero should raise here pre-flop and it is not even remotely close. It's not even really in the conversation. At all.

ErrantNight

11-04-2005, 04:37 PM

don't make another post until you understand how amazingly standard and unworthy of your thought the decision to raise JJ is.

Spook

11-04-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't make another post until you understand how amazingly standard and unworthy of your thought the decision to raise JJ is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I had read this in HEPFAP - I will try to find it.
It says to not raise on the button with JJ against exactly 3 or 4 players.
Page 25. With a pair of jacks it is best to call in a loose game if there is going to be more than one or two opponents. Either you want 1 or 2 or as many as possible.

HajiShirazu

11-04-2005, 05:53 PM

I think if you were going to call down anyway it's worth taking a shot at getting him to lay down a queen with a turn raise. Nobody folds here though, I guess. Yeah, you should probably call down instead and get the value out of 88-TT. But if you have seen this guy make a laydown in the past, this is a pretty big pot and he doesn't have to fold very often to make this right, plus, you were going to call down anyway.

W. Deranged

11-04-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't make another post until you understand how amazingly standard and unworthy of your thought the decision to raise JJ is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I had read this in HEPFAP - I will try to find it.
It says to not raise on the button with JJ against exactly 3 or 4 players.
Page 25. With a pair of jacks it is best to call in a loose game if there is going to be more than one or two opponents. Either you want 1 or 2 or as many as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes your opponents don't play garbage. Your opponents play garbage.

And this is one point where I disagree with a book. I raise JJ on the button in every game... and twice on Sunday.