Am i spewing here?

[sean c]

Morning boys Party 2/4. Good game a couple of lossy goosy fish the only problem is the player on my left is a very good tag over a pretty large sample. FWIW he is not tricky post flop and plays his hands in a pretty straight foward manner. He is plenty aggressive post flop.

Pre flop: two ep players limp, i raise with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, the tag makes it three, folds to the limpers who get out of our way and i call.

Flop: KQx rainbow.
I bet, tag raises and i call.

Turn: another blank
I bet, tag raises, i make it three and the tag capps. Oops i am pretty screwed and in a bad spot now i tell myself "nice line stupid" and call him down.

Give me a better line.

[benkath1]

I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sean c]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[davelin]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep TAGs on your left dangit! TAGs on your left, LAGs on your right.

[deception5]

I prefer check/raising the turn and calling down if 3-bet.

I would prefer to try and 3-bet the flop, to take control at that point.

I don't think you are screwed to the point of folding here, and would call down at the very least.

I could easily put the villan on AA, AK, KQ, KK or QQ here all equally likely, that gives you 50% equity as of the turn. The villan could also be on a draw of somekind and really overplaying it, you never know for sure. What you do know is that you can see the showdown with 2 more BB in an already big pot and you have top 2 pair, DON'T FOLD.

Margon

[benkath1]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep TAGs on your left dangit! TAGs on your left, LAGs on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a minute. I thought we wanted lags on our left because they will be cold calling raises with weaker hands and helping us protect, when they have marginal hands. tags on the right to avoid the nasty 3 bets and free card plays. among other reasons.

Where did I go wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[sean c]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep TAGs on your left dangit! TAGs on your left, LAGs on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a minute. I thought we wanted lags on our left because they will be cold calling raises with weaker hands and helping us protect, when they have marginal hands. tags on the right to avoid the nasty 3 bets and free card plays. among other reasons.

Where did I go wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Iso the lags on the right and clear out the tags on the left. In this hand though it sucked having the tag on the left and every other hand we tangled in i played like a scared little girl.

[davelin]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep TAGs on your left dangit! TAGs on your left, LAGs on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a minute. I thought we wanted lags on our left because they will be cold calling raises with weaker hands and helping us protect, when they have marginal hands. tags on the right to avoid the nasty 3 bets and free card plays. among other reasons.

Where did I go wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been awhile but doesn't the action go from right to left? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bison wrote a great post about this. What's the most important thing in Hold'em? Position. Every book and expert harps about this, Harrington himself says that if two players played HU, one worse than the other but had position on the expert, the worse player would win.

With a TAG on your immediately left, you "gain" position. When you're in the CO, you'll be essentially be in the button since the TAG will be throwing away 80% of his hands.

With LAGs in front of you, you can play more hands profitably. 54s? 97s? Kxs? These hands become more profitable to play when you have 4-5 limpers in front of you, can't get that with TAGs on your right.

[davelin]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 (Link)

[benkath1]

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I'd just call his raise on the turn. If he's that TAGGY, you could be behind his set.

Then move to his left when the next seat is available. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I got on his left the following night and made a cute comment about it he didn't respond or stay very long some people have no sense of humor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep TAGs on your left dangit! TAGs on your left, LAGs on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a minute. I thought we wanted lags on our left because they will be cold calling raises with weaker hands and helping us protect, when they have marginal hands. tags on the right to avoid the nasty 3 bets and free card plays. among other reasons.

Where did I go wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been awhile but doesn't the action go from right to left? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bison wrote a great post about this. What's the most important thing in Hold'em? Position. Every book and expert harps about this, Harrington himself says that if two players played HU, one worse than the other but had position on the expert, the worse player would win.

With a TAG on your immediately left, you "gain" position. When you're in the CO, you'll be essentially be in the button since the TAG will be throwing away 80% of his hands.

With LAGs in front of you, you can play more hands profitably. 54s? 97s? Kxs? These hands become more profitable to play when you have 4-5 limpers in front of you, can't get that with TAGs on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love you man.

[sean c]

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I prefer check/raising the turn and calling down if 3-bet.

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I thought this was an alternative line but i felt i was giving up to much value by only getting in one bet on the flop and i thought there was a chance he checks the turn with JJ-99 which i included in his 3-betting range.

[ErrantNight]

3-bet the flop

[sean c]

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3-bet the flop

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Hi Errant if capped do you like bet/call turn check/call river or just a call down?

[deception5]

Honestly I don't mind your line at all. There's 6 possibilities of AA, 1 possibility of KK, 1 QQ, 4KQ. There's a reasonable chance he still thinks he has the best hand with any of these on the turn.

[sean c]

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Honestly I don't mind your line at all. There's 6 possibilities of AA, 1 possibility of KK, 1 QQ, 4KQ. There's a reasonable chance he still thinks he has the best hand with any of these on the turn.

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Thanks Deception i was afraid i was being results oriented here so that is why i posted. The more i think about this hand the only alternative line i like is capping the flop bet/calling the turn and check/calling the river.

[hobbsmann]

get the flop capped and the either bet/call the turn or just go into call down mode there.

[TomBrooks]

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Give me a better line.

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Three betting the flop is an option. If TAG caps it, I give possible credit for KK or QQ. And call down from there. I don't see a Tag three betting JT so I don't think it's an OESD Semi-bluff and I expect TAG to bet the turn.

This is essentially what you did, but on the flop instead of doing it on the more expensive turn.

[sean c]

Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

[deception5]

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Thanks Deception i was afraid i was being results oriented here so that is why i posted. The more i think about this hand the only alternative line i like is capping the flop bet/calling the turn and check/calling the river.

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This is a good line as well. I think with the line you took you have to 3-bet the turn as AK is still a very real possibility at that point.

One other line I occasionally take would be calling the turn raise and bet-calling the river. There are a few scare cards (any broadway) that could make a better hand just call on the river and 3-betting the turn creates the possibility of 5BB going in on the turn/river versus 4 with the bet/call-bet/call line. It's very unlikely that the opponent will improve here since when behind he likely has 2-3 outs and there's a decent chance that he'll raise you again on the river with AK/AA.

[ErrantNight]

i would put in one more bet (on the turn) before going into calldown mode... as I think AA caps this flop like always, and AK a lot. A turn raise from villain doesn't necessarily mean you're behind, but I think if you get capped again (if you 3-bet) you'd be drawing either dead (if villain has KK) or to 2 outs (if villain had QQ)

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious but do you equally weight AA,AK,KK and QQ when he caps the flop? Just wondering about the math for betting the turn if he caps the flop. We are likely getting raised by KK and QQ, so we lose two bets, but we gain one bet from AA and AK as he is less likely to raise. On top of that, I think if he's aggressive enough to cap the flop with AA and AK he is going to bet the turn 100% of the time if checked to. So in these situations I think I just let him do the betting for me. Just a thought.

[DCWildcat]

Had he limped PF, this would be an easy call/ c/r, but with PF raise...meh...3-betting the flop is probably best.

[hobbsmann]

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

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Sean, I agree the bet/calling the turn is probably the way to go as I can see many players capping the flop with AK which is going to be the crux of swinging your turn decision from check/call to bet/call.

[sean c]

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

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Just curious but do you equally weight AA,AK,KK and QQ when he caps the flop? Just wondering about the math for betting the turn if he caps the flop. We are likely getting raised by KK and QQ, so we lose two bets, but we gain one bet from AA and AK as he is less likely to raise. On top of that, I think if he's aggressive enough to cap the flop with AA and AK he is going to bet the turn 100% of the time if checked to. So in these situations I think I just let him do the betting for me. Just a thought.

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Hi Tehox i am not one of the resident math wizzes here but given his range and combos of that range i felt i was far to likely to be ahead to go into call down mode on the turn and river.

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious but do you equally weight AA,AK,KK and QQ when he caps the flop? Just wondering about the math for betting the turn if he caps the flop. We are likely getting raised by KK and QQ, so we lose two bets, but we gain one bet from AA and AK as he is less likely to raise. On top of that, I think if he's aggressive enough to cap the flop with AA and AK he is going to bet the turn 100% of the time if checked to. So in these situations I think I just let him do the betting for me. Just a thought.

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Hi Tehox i am not one of the resident math wizzes here but given his range and combos of that range i felt i was far to likely to be ahead to go into call down mode on the turn and river.

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He is much much more likely to have AK or AA than KK or QQ (as there is only one combo left of each of these). But I'm not sure how often he is capping AA or AK on the flop.

More importantly, I think though that if he caps the flop with AA or AK, he is unlikely to raise the turn if you lead, but will bet if you check to him. So checking allows us to get paid off by AA and AK, but not raised by KK or QQ. Probably would really depend on how aggressive he is.

[eviljeff]

I'm c/ring this flop every time and capping if he 3bets. based on your reads I'm guessing he 3bets here with AK/AA, which are more likely than KK/QQ. if he pops me on the turn, then I'll call down, but not if one of the limpers is still in.

[sean c]

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious but do you equally weight AA,AK,KK and QQ when he caps the flop? Just wondering about the math for betting the turn if he caps the flop. We are likely getting raised by KK and QQ, so we lose two bets, but we gain one bet from AA and AK as he is less likely to raise. On top of that, I think if he's aggressive enough to cap the flop with AA and AK he is going to bet the turn 100% of the time if checked to. So in these situations I think I just let him do the betting for me. Just a thought.

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Hi Tehox i am not one of the resident math wizzes here but given his range and combos of that range i felt i was far to likely to be ahead to go into call down mode on the turn and river.

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He is much much more likely to have AK or AA than KK or QQ (as there is only one combo left of each of these). But I'm not sure how often he is capping AA or AK on the flop.

More importantly, I think though that if he caps the flop with AA or AK, he is unlikely to raise the turn if you lead, but will bet if you check to him. So checking allows us to get paid off by AA and AK, but not raised by KK or QQ. Probably would really depend on how aggressive he is.

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Very good point Tehox your right he may have called down with AK if the flop had been capped. I think he is still raising AA but maybe it is close. If it is i like my original line better.

[sean c]

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I'm c/ring this flop every time and capping if he 3bets. based on your reads I'm guessing he 3bets here with AK/AA, which are more likely than KK/QQ. if he pops me on the turn, then I'll call down, but not if one of the limpers is still in.

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Hi Jeff c/r on the flop is certainly an option but i felt a donk hid the strength of my hand better.

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Hey Tom and Hobbs thanks. If this player capped the flop i think his range is exactly AA-QQ and AK maybe KQs also as unlikely as that maybe. So i think i am still ahead often enough to bet/call the turn check/call the river. When he capped the turn i threw AK out the window as a possible holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious but do you equally weight AA,AK,KK and QQ when he caps the flop? Just wondering about the math for betting the turn if he caps the flop. We are likely getting raised by KK and QQ, so we lose two bets, but we gain one bet from AA and AK as he is less likely to raise. On top of that, I think if he's aggressive enough to cap the flop with AA and AK he is going to bet the turn 100% of the time if checked to. So in these situations I think I just let him do the betting for me. Just a thought.

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Hi Tehox i am not one of the resident math wizzes here but given his range and combos of that range i felt i was far to likely to be ahead to go into call down mode on the turn and river.

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He is much much more likely to have AK or AA than KK or QQ (as there is only one combo left of each of these). But I'm not sure how often he is capping AA or AK on the flop.

More importantly, I think though that if he caps the flop with AA or AK, he is unlikely to raise the turn if you lead, but will bet if you check to him. So checking allows us to get paid off by AA and AK, but not raised by KK or QQ. Probably would really depend on how aggressive he is.

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Very good point Tehox your right he may have called down with AK if the flop had been capped. I think he is still raising AA but maybe it is close. If it is i like my original line better.

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Just throwing it out there. If he raises the turn with AA after capping the flop then leading the turn is clearly better (6 combos of AA vs. 2 combos total of KK/QQ), I'm just not sure how often they're raising AA in that spot (I think we're pretty much never getting raised by AK but would depend a lot on reads).

[Felipe]

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Give me a better line.

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pure grunch. i don't play party, nor 2/4 limit. But i like this, I think you won the hand. If he plays straight forward and is aggressive, AK, AQ are all reasonble. AA too! If you lost, well.......