KJ against a maniac

[Spicymoose]

Villain here is 51/15/1, but has done a lot of rediculous things. He limp/capped A2 on the button, he went followed all the way with A8 on a dry board that I had been raising and betting on, and proceeded to bet when he hit his 8 on the river (of a board something like QJ598). SB is tight and passive from what I have seen, and BB is a TAG. UTG is loose but extremely passive.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, CO calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

[Roy6]

sorry, misread the hand completely.

[Spicymoose]

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I don't get your turn bet with CO still in the hand.

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Well, it is pretty hard to bet if he isn't in the hand...

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I don't get your turn bet with CO still in the hand.

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Well, it is pretty hard to bet if he isn't in the hand...

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True that.

I agree with his point, though. Your preflop 3-bet (which I usually fold, I think) means you think KJ is pretty good against his range. Meaning your read is he could have KT, K9, and some others, no? (if it is a dominated king, giving a free card isn't a big deal) But more likely you are beat. So I'd just want to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

[Spicymoose]

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I don't get your turn bet with CO still in the hand.

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Well, it is pretty hard to bet if he isn't in the hand...

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True that.

I agree with his point, though. Your preflop 3-bet (which I usually fold, I think) means you think KJ is pretty good against his range. Meaning your read is he could have KT, K9, and some others, no? (if it is a dominated king, giving a free card isn't a big deal) But more likely you are beat. So I'd just want to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

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I may have him dominated, but he also may have some garbage such as 98, and have up to 6 outs against me. I don't like giving him a free card.

[disjunction]

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I may have him dominated, but he also may have some garbage such as 98, and have up to 6 outs against me. I don't like giving him a free card.

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Yeah, I dunno, your point is valid, maybe it's worth doing the math. How many outs do you think he has on average, 6 or 7? If he hits it costs you about 7.2 bets, the EV on that is (-1.04) or something.

The part I was missing is that if he has a pocket pair and you get a free showdown, then your bet is basically EV neutral (of course, you may not get a free showdown, so I think it's a little -EV). If he has an ace (he plays any ace) you probably lost a bet or so, depending on how much you think he can extract from you. If he does a wacky check-raise bluff, I assume you're folding and you lose the same bet.

So I think it comes down to whether he's more likely to have an ace than air. Agree?

Edit for clarity: The above should read "if you think your turn bet gets you a free showdown on the river"

[Subby]

The guy bets into you on the river when your hand is fairly well protected. You haven't given any indication that he'll bet with air (your one example of him donking on the end was when he paired his 8). His agression factor is pretty low for this game. Based on the reads you have given, I would probably fold the river.

[Spartan1983]

I think you should fold the river. He's 1 of those, "too dumb too fold" types.

Interesting hand. Most of the replies have focused on the river -- I don't think you can fold the river against this opponent.

But to me the turn may be more interesting. I think that a turn check is probably superior to betting -- the A isn't a good card for you. Alternatively, call the flop bet and raise the turn, then check behind on the river if he calls the turn raise.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I like checking the turn since it allows you to get to SD putting in only 2 BBs against an opponent who isn't folding any pair and who may well bluff donk the river.

[danzasmack]

This is a common situation. I think that the way you played it a call on the river is worthwile most every time. This call against a maniac is a winning call often enough based on the way you played it.

Villain does not have an Ace from what we see here and i think a busted flush is very possible.

That being said, against this type of player i check on the turn and call the river. My hand has showdown value and i want to get there ASAP.

Meh.

If this monkey is capable of folding a pocket pair that would otherwise play, I'd raise the river. Most times I think you lose by calling, or at best chop with a king.

[surfdoc]

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Meh.

If this monkey is capable of folding a pocket pair that would otherwise play, I'd raise the river. Most times I think you lose by calling, or at best chop with a king.

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Meh is right. This line makes no sense. The OP described a LAGGy villian and the numbers bear that out. There is no way he ever folds a better hand here. Call the river with your nut no pair, or fold the river. Just don't raise it.

To the OP: you make a free card play on the flop, I think you should take it.

[Spicymoose]

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To the OP: you make a free card play on the flop, I think you should take it.

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My "read" on villain that I gave you guys doesn't adequately describe everything I have seen him do. In my mind the raise on the flop was not a free card play, but that I actually may have some value in it. I also am really concerned about giving him free cards. This opponent could easily be raising with a huge variety of hands. Given this, do you still check the turn?

Thanks,
Spicymoose