10-20 Mirage

[Yeknom58]

This past weekend, SAT night around 2:00 A.M. Just as a side note, the 20-40 game behind me was having a world war about a string bet and all kinds of stupid things. I think that game was turning bad but eh who knows. Anyone out here know what happend.

Anyway back to business.

I'm dealt KT spades in LM position. Two callers before me I call Button calls and SB folds and BB checks.

Flop
K,10, 2 RAINBOW

CHECKED TO ME, I CHECK. A LITTLE BACK GROUND ON THE BUTTON. HE'LL CALL WITH ABOUT ANYTHING AND ALMOST ALWAYS BET'S WHEN CHECKED TO. I FIGURE I'LL CHECK RAISE TO PUMP THIS POT. BUTTON BETS, FOLDED TO ME...HMMMM. I CALLED FIGURING I'D GET HIM ON THE TURN.

TURN
[K, 10, 2] 6. RAINBOW COMPLETE

OK PERFECT, NOW TIME FOR THE CHECK RAISE. I'M SURE HE'LL CALL AT LEAST ONE BET WITH KX OR A,10. I CHECK, HE CHECKS BEHIND. WHAT THE F@#@. IS HE ON SOME KIND OF STRAIGHT DRAW?

RIVER.
[K, 10, 2, 6] 6.

NOW THIS 6 COULDN'T HAVE HELPED HIM. SO I FIGURE I BET IT HOPING HE'LL CALL. OK SO NOW HE RAISES. NOW I'M TOTALLY CONFUSED. HE'S NOT THE TRICKY TYPE AND HE DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE RAISED PRE-FLOP WITH KK, AND IF HE HAD TT OR 22 WHY WOULD HE CHECK THE TURN. I HAD RECENTLY BEEN CAUGHT IN A STUPID BLUFF SO MAYBE HE THINKS I'M ON A BLUFF. BEING THE WUSS THAT I AM I ONLY CALL AND DON'T RE-RAISE.

THAT GUY SHOWS J-6 FOR THE RUNNER RUNNER SET.

THE GUY NEXT TO ME CALLS ME A FOOL FOR CECKING THE FLOP AND THE TURN. I THINK EVERYTHING THAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG DID AND THIS WAS A CASE OF BAD LUCK. WHAT DO YOU THINK. BAD BAD LUCK OR JUST PLAIN STUPID. REGARDLESS I FELT LIKE AN IDIOT.

[Vehn]

I honestly can't remember the last time I check called the flop and then check raised the turn (when I flopped something huge vs completing a draw of course).

Don't show your cards.

[Yeknom58]

My stupid reasoning was what I thought this guy was going to do. I figured if I check raise the flop he would only call a bet on the turn that is, if he didn't fold. Where as if I check call the flop, and check raise the turn, even if he folds to the check raise on the turn I get an extra SB. I was planning on checkraising the flop but when everyong folded to me I figured why bother. I thought I KNEW what he was going to do. He bet every draw and bet if he had even a piece of the flop. I mean he bet J-6 with with a flop of K-10-2 with 3 people still in the hand. Why wouldn't he bet the 6 heads up. I still can't explain it. I figure he'd fold to a raise on the turn with only a 6. It's pretty obvious I was wrong because he checked his pair of 6's on the turn. I just though I could optimize my winnings with a check raise againsts this guy. I was obviously wrong but had he bet and I raised I'm thinking he folds the turn. I think he might even fold the flop if I check raised him. Any other person and I come out betting my top two but I thought I knew this guy. BOY WAS I WRONG.

He was taking a good amount of time to show his cards so I figured he was on a bluff and I caught him so that's why I showed my cards first.

[rtrombone]

This is a classic illustration of the importance of position. If you're behind the bettor you can call the flop because it's not so bad if he checks the turn; there's no danger of missing a bet. But if you have to act first and you're wrong about your opponent betting the turn, it is an absolute catastrophe.

I think checking the flop is correct given your description of the button. You were right, he did bet when checked to. You stood to build a good pot if there were callers in between the two of you. Unfortunately, nobody called. Calling instead of raising is correct if the button is going to bet the turn. Sounds like you had a good read on the button and that he simply chose to vary his play. You can't really call it a mistake if this is the first time the button failed to bet in this type of situation.

One reason to check-raise at the flop is if he will not read too much strength in your raise because he thinks you think he was simply using his position to try and steal the pot. Sounds like this guy doesn't think on this level, though.

With that ragged board I would usually check the flop. If, as in your case, it was heads up at the turn I would normally come out betting, hoping to get in 3 bets.

[bigfishead]

sometimes they call it "Fancy Play Syndrome" We all get it occasionally. It'll go away if treated. Play your next top two fast and call me in the morning.

[bigfishead]

There is know way on the world I check this flop. I try to pound it bad. Tho not correctly applied to this particular hand as it played out, when you flop top 2 when holding probably the biggest trouble hand there ever was in K10, you are so much in "the zone" that one must try his damndest ASAP to get the pot. QJ, AQ, AJ, Q9, etc all stay in for one bet. usually not for more tho. Fire! I say Fire all cannons!

Or muck it and dont see the flop. This hand will cost the price of a house over lifetime.

[David Sklansky]

Although I would rarely check on the flop, I certainly would if I thought the last guy would usually bet. And I'd check the turn if it was just me and him. The critics are all wrong here.

[MHoydilla]

If the button would bet every time when checked too, how could you be sure the button has anything. If the button has nothing (no pair/draw) why would he call your raise on the flop or bet on the turn. The pot is small this may be a perfect time to check twice to try to induce a bluff or bet with a lesser holding on the river by your opponent, which you could raise. If he bets the flop automatically if checked to, do you think he may bet the river if checked to on the turn and river? Or if you check the turn and bet out on the river he may call you with an ace-high/small pair. In this hand you know your a big favorite in a small pot so do what ever it takes to get more bets out of your opponent.

[elysium]

hi yek
as always i haven't read any of the responses yet. i think that you should have checked raised the flop, expecting to get a call. you would have folded him, and then regretted the check-raise, but that is what you should have done evbery time against this opponent on the flop.

[mike l.]

"THAT GUY SHOWS J-6 FOR THE RUNNER RUNNER SET."

trips. a set is pocket pair and one matching card on board. trips is two on board and one in the hand.

"THE GUY NEXT TO ME CALLS ME A FOOL FOR CECKING THE FLOP AND THE TURN."

the guy next to you is a fool. you played it fine. dont stress over these things.

[Dynasty]

I was in this game with you. You were in seat 6. Your chastising friend was in seat 7. The Button in this particular hand was seat 10. I was in seat 9- the guy who "finally broke even" and then left with a good win (QQ floping top set and rivering a full house).

It was an amusing hand. But, I wouldn't worry about it. Usually, I would bet top two pair of Kings and Tens because there are plenty of hand which can call and some inferior hand which will raise. I play it fast because I expect to get action, not because it's vulnerable.

Yes, I was the guy who had KT and flopped two-pair and hour later and "showed you how to play it".

[AlexD30]

Why Check Raise?
Well you might say to yourself that since it is likely that top pair with an ace kicker or two pairs are good right now it could easily be beaten on the river, so why don't I just wait and see. The reason is that 3-4 players in the pot there are reasonable pot odds to make all sorts of wild draws against you UNLESS you bet or raise on the flop to get information of where you’re at. Usually you want to make this move when you don’t have a very monster hand on the flop and that hand is not likely to improve. For example top pair high kicker or two pair on the flop. You have to bet into any flop to make it expensive.

You wrote:
“CHECKED TO ME, I CHECK. A LITTLE BACK GROUND ON THE BUTTON. HE'LL CALL WITH ABOUT ANYTHING AND ALMOST ALWAYS BET'S WHEN CHECKED TO. I FIGURE I'LL CHECK RAISE TO PUMP THIS POT. BUTTON BETS, FOLDED TO ME...HMMMM. I CALLED FIGURING I'D GET HIM ON THE TURN.”

When the button bets you should have raised right there! That was your check-raise move. The guy with J6 probably would have fold be faced with 2 bets.

AlexD30

[leon]

"When the button bets you should have raised right there! That was your check-raise move. The guy with J6 probably would have fold be faced with 2 bets."

That's just wrong. Or, better put, it's wrong that you want him to fold. He's drawing so slim it's worth taking the runner-runner risk to collect extra bets from him. Once all of the poster's opponents fold to the button's bet, a simple call is in order. A check raise would be right if he had other callers of the flop bet.

Simply put, if I could see the button's hand on the flop in this situation, and somehow I check raised him, HU, I'd be rooting for him to CALL or RERAISE, not fold.

Leon

[RollaJ]

Personally I would c/r the flop and bet the whole way after that, I would save turn c/r plays for when I have stronger hands and/or a less coordinated board. Seeing as you got it heads up, checking to him on the turn aint so bad, I might even check call the turn and try to c/r the river heads up. If he is trying to buy it let him bluff the whole way. In the long run you know you are better off playing the way you did, dont worry about the short term and the 360-1 shots hitting /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[AlexD30]

Hands with less then 5 outs should be bet/raise or check-raise on the flop.

Well, top pair with an ace or king kicker or two pairs could easily be beaten on the river. Both those hands don’t have many “outs” to improve. (i.e. the top pair has 2 outs to make trips and 3 outs to make two pairs. The two pairs have four outs to make a full house – two outs on each pair) That’s it! So, we are talking here about not much chance of improvement. The reason is that 3-4 players in the pot there are reasonable pot odds to make all sorts of wild draws against you UNLESS you bet/raise on the flop to get information of where you’re at. You have to bet/raise into any flop when you have top pair with big kicker or two pairs.

But, hey! .. If he would have raised the guy with J6 on the flop probably that player would have folded 100% and he would have won the pot right there. That was a big swing in $$ of what he did of checking and calling all the way to the river vs. betting the flop.

It is very rarely correct to check or call in this game. Either you have a hand that is good enough for a raise or get out by folding. What is the point of keep checking? If your hand is so week that you are afraid to bet/raise then you should not be involved in that pot. Period!
You only check in the big blind if you have nothing or you check when you are certain that you will be able to check-raise. If you have any doubts that the check-raise will not work then you are better off betting right there.

AlexD30

PS: Oh, by the way, I was at Bellagio last weekend playing 20-40 and, I did great!

[Vehn]

I think most likely you broke even playing $20/$40 hold'em at the Bellagio.

[Yeknom58]

I like that..FPS...funny stuff. I rarely get a case of FPS but when I do..ohh boy you had better watch it's gonna be a funny ride.

[Yeknom58]

Thanks, I never knew that trips vs set. Learn something new every single day.

[Yeknom58]

Hi,

Nice meeting you, chipped tooth right. That was a fun game huh.

later,

[elindauer]

I don't agree with your suggestion to come out betting on the turn. If you aren't going to check-raise here on the turn, when will you? Your hand is completely concealed. Your opponent has bet the flop on a board with very few draws. An irrelevant card hits on the turn. Why do you think he won't bet again? If he holds a K or a T he'll almost certainly throw another bet out there in case you're calling looking for a gutshot. If he's bluffing, as this player clearly was on the flop, he may fire again for the same reason.

I would check-raise in this situation every time.

[Dynasty]

PS: Oh, by the way, I was at Bellagio last weekend playing 20-40 and, I did great!

You're going to lose credibility fast saying things like this. The Bellagio doesn't spread a 20-40 hold 'em game.

But, hey! .. If he would have raised the guy with J6 on the flop probably that player would have folded 100% and he would have won the pot right there.

This is a great example of the problem with most of your posts. You don't want your opponent to fold J6 on a K,T,2 rainbow flop when you're holding KT. Everytime your opponent folds on that flop, you lose EV.

[rtrombone]

Whether you bet or check on the turn is very opponent dependent. If you feel strongly that he has a very weak hand but will take another stab at the pot, then certainly it is correct to check and then bet out at the river (unless you feel he will bet yet again at the river).

What I'm saying is that it is not uncommon for an opponent to bet the flop and then check the turn when checked to. Sure, he will now call your river bet. But many poor players will call a turn AND river bet. Again, it comes down to what you think of your opponent.

[bigfishead]

David,
With better players I may tend to agree. However as described I just pound.

[bigfishead]

At the time of the check there are 4 people in the pot. No checkie, bet it. They were in early position and check. I bet. No gutshot draws for free. Which btw is what normally hurts you in this situation. Not of course the running 6's.

[AlexD30]

Well, I just made a mistake and mess up the two places. I actually played on both clubs over the weekend. It was Bellagio for 15-30 and Mirage for 20-40. But, anyway, If he don’t want a guy with J6 to fold early in the game then what so much fuss about losing when he’s making the hand on the river? I understand that is painful if you have two pairs but losing at river when some player with J6 or 72 is drawing on 2-3 outs and making the wining hand. You cannot have it both way: (1) let him in the game with junk to make sure he is putting bets into the pot but cry if he makes his hand by the river or (2) bet/raise/check-raise him into the ground to put him out of misery but be sorry that you didn’t extract some more chips from him.

AlexD30

[leon]

I'll try and help you.

"Hands with less then 5 outs should be bet/raise or check-raise on the flop"

The poster is ahead. Period. He has no and needs no "outs". Perhaps you seriously do feel that hands with less than 5 outs should bet, raise, or check raise the flop. This means that you bet any flop where you hit a gutshot draw, b/c it has 4 outs. Or an underpair- it has 2 outs. I love your thinking- ram and jam a hand that is almost certainly behind, and with little chance of improving.

"Well, top pair with an ace or king kicker or two pairs could easily be beaten on the river. Both those hands don’t have many “outs” to improve. (i.e. the top pair has 2 outs to make trips and 3 outs to make two pairs. The two pairs have four outs to make a full house – two outs on each pair) That’s it! So, we are talking here about not much chance of improvement. The reason is that 3-4 players in the pot there are reasonable pot odds to make all sorts of wild draws against you UNLESS you bet/raise on the flop to get information of where you’re at. You have to bet/raise into any flop when you have top pair with big kicker or two pairs."

Agreed, to a point. But when the poster has ALL of his opponents fold to a button bet, it's up to him, and he has top two pair, he is correct to allow the slim possibility that his opponent might outdraw him in an effort to extract extra bets. Fearing runner runner draws and thinning them out when HU when they're willing to charge THEMSELVES to draw for the privilege is just bad poker.

"But, hey! .. If he would have raised the guy with J6 on the flop probably that player would have folded 100% and he would have won the pot right there."

Yep. And you don't want that if he would have potentially given you more action while drawing very slim.

"That was a big swing in $$ of what he did of checking and calling all the way to the river vs. betting the flop."

First, he didn't check and call the whole way. He checked the turn with the intention of check raising and was foiled. Then he bet the river only to be raised by an unfortunate draw out. I guess you missed those little details.

"It is very rarely correct to check or call in this game."

Thanks for the tip.

"If your hand is so week that you are afraid to bet/raise then you should not be involved in that pot. Period!
You only check in the big blind if you have nothing or you check when you are certain that you will be able to check-raise."

These points, while being irrelevant to the discussion at hand, are... well, irrelevant.

"PS: Oh, by the way, I was at Bellagio last weekend playing 20-40 and, I did great!"

This point, while being patently a lie and irrelevant, is, well, irrelevant. Next time say you played at the 20-40 at Treasure Island. It's much more convincing. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Leon