Frustrated gambler advice

I have been playing online now for a couple of years and never did too well. Then about 6 months ago I decided to take my hobby more seriously. I have read a few books on no limit holdem. I was pretty amazed at how diffrent the hands played out and what I saw after spending some time investigating the game. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the true fundementals of the game and wanted to use the sit and go's to pratice, learn and gain experience.
One problem I find the lower limit games to be very hard to play. Everyone limps in, you will get called any amount at any time on a whim. Every hand has the possibility to be turned into a coin flip. So I moved up to some higher stakes tabels. I find these easier to play at but I am not really good enough to hold my own and could go through a good portion of $ playing there.

Any suggestions as to the best way to improve?

[Bigdaddydvo]

Go to SNG forum and read the FAQs to start.

Moving up limits because it's tighter and "people respect your raises" is really awful. Beat the 10s consistently and move up from there.

[yellowjack]

You must realize that you're making money when they make mistakes in terms of EV, i.e. opponents calling a big raise preflop with garbage is +EV for you. I don't suggest playing too high until you have a good grasp of this fundamental concept, and how being aware of this ensures your success at any level, and any gambling game.

Sorry if this sounds repetitive to you, but the reasons you listed for moving to higher stakes tables don't show that you understand this.

Thanks for the quick responses.
A couple of question. I hate to be the newb but I looked around and could not find the sng faq.
Also not to sure what +EV is. Are you are talking about offering unfavorable pot odds and being constantly called with semi weak hands?
Thanks again for the response I appreciate the advice.

[yellowjack]

EV is the money you gain/lose in making a play, over all possible cases. Take for example this very simple situation:

A heads-up no limit hold'em game between two players with no blinds or antes. <font color="red">Player A</font> is dealt Ah Ad and goes all-in for $10. <font color="blue">Player K</font> calls the all-in with Kh Kd.
On average, with some help from twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&amp;b=&amp;d=&amp;h=Ah+Ad%0D%0AKh+Kd%0D%0A), we see that the AA will win 82.36% of the time, lose 17.09% of the time, and tie 0.54% of the time. Conversely, the KK will win 17.08% of the time, lose 82.36% of the time, and tie 0.54% of the time.

EV of Player A
0.8236*(<font color="red">+$10</font>) + 0.1708*(<font color="blue">-$10</font> + 0.0054*(+$0) = +$6.528 (= $6.53 rounded up)
Player A will win $6.53 on average, each time he is in this situation.

EV of Player K
0.8236*(<font color="red">-$10</font>) + 0.1708*(<font color="blue">+$10</font> + 0.0054*(+$0) = -$6.528 (= -$6.53 rounded up)
Not surprisingly, Player K will lose $6.53 each time he is in situation.

This explains how the donkeys calling allins with trash eventually lose. In this example player K didn't play the hand incorrectly at all. And that's the thing, you can play a hand correctly and still be behind because you have no idea what your opponent has. However, as long as you are +EV against the range of hands you think your opponent could have (i.e. any pair, AK or AQ) then it's correct to call even though you may get unlucky.

In the case of making big raises preflop and getting called by garbage, it's not that simple. Postflop play cannot be simplified very well. However, you can figure out how much money they are losing by making that preflop call after you know their hand, by using the above idea.

Hope this helps.

[Felipe]

I don't play NL but I recommend you buy these very fundamental and important books:

T.O.P. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685000/qid=1131077273/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8746423-2972747?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)
HoH1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685337/qid=1131077328/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/104-8746423-2972747?v=glance&amp;s=books)

They will pay themselves off soon.

[NLfool]

ok first off low limit is very frustrating. Don't overplay you overpair in limit in a field of 7 or 8 players. You want to thin the field play no limit. You're getting +EV if they all call but they are also not making a significant mistake with all the callers you aren't getting nearly the +EV spots you think you are (plus it's likely to get you frustrated or tilting)


2nd in SNG in the beginning don't play anything except for big pairs and AK, AQ (and don't call raises with AQ) Playing this tight you'll get down to 5 players as the blinds are escalating. Now the blinds/antes are worth stealing and you've earned a rep as a tight player you'll steal more than your fair share now. From here is it easy to make the money

Someone already said this but it really should be stressed. Moving up in stakes because you think the bad beats and the suck outs will be less is an a extremely flawed concept. The more mistakes your opponents make the easier it is for you to succeed at poker.

The thing that sucks though, is that it takes a bit longer for better play to shine through at sng's, than it does in ring games. Probably why you feel you are losing too much. Variance in sng's is hard to deal with. Maybe you should check out ring games, or multi tables. they might suit you better.

Well first off let me say that I am really impressed by this board. It looks like I asked a couple of pretty general question and instead of getting flamed I got some very intelligent and useful answers. Just wanted to say thanks.

I have read both of Harrington's books but have not read t.o.p. by Salansky yet. Looks like I will be getting that shortly though.

As far as EV there is a chapter in Harrington’s second book on this though it is refer to as hand analysis I believe. I have been focusing on the general strategy and have only touched on some of the more in depth strategies in my game play. (Mostly watching my M and changing my play accordingly)

One more question I would like to ask before I let this thread die. It looks like I need to really take into account EV. When playing how often do you bother to calculate this? Is this something that needs to be done on a regular basis, or more of a big pot turning point situations? Or is it more of a study the hands through calculations and know through experience roughly what the EV is?

[tigerite]

The latter, for sure.

[bawcerelli]

oh yeah, the learning curve you have ahead of your will be no fun either, king. just letting you know what you're in for. good luck.

[SonnyJay]

First, the obligatory (because it needs to be emphasized) comment about "don't move up in stakes because people will respect your raises." This will undoubtedly cost you money.

Second, it's not possible to do EV calculations for each decision as you're making it, because you simply don't have time and even if you could you can't do it the result is imperfect because you don't have an exact range of hands. Download Pokerstove (there's a link in the FAQ...always the second thread listed), look at your hand histories and play around with situations that you aren't sure about. You can test the percentage of the time your hand wins against different ranges of hands (ie. I have 88 and he will call me with any pocket pair or any ace). If you're committed to playing SNG tournaments then it would help to download SNG Power Tools (also in the FAQ). It costs money, but it can help you analyze your play at a deeper level using a theory called the Independent Chip Model (if you're interested there have been a bunch of trainwreck threads about it lately that I was a part of...you may be able to find more reasonable threads by using the search function).

You don't sit at your computer calculating EV, but once you play a lot and analyze your game you begin to intuitively understand certain decisions that come up frequently (ie. pocket pair vs. 2 overcards). It comes with study and experience.

Beyond that, read this forum and post hands that you have questions about. Best of luck to you.

-SonnyJay

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the quick responses.
A couple of question. I hate to be the newb but I looked around and could not find the sng faq.
Also not to sure what +EV is. Are you are talking about offering unfavorable pot odds and being constantly called with semi weak hands?
Thanks again for the response I appreciate the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

The SNG FAQ is the second sticky post from the top of this forum.

If moving to SNGs, the best general advice is very tight early, very aggressive late when opening the betting. Get very familiar with ICM and how to use it. If your willing to put a little money in, buy SNGPT...I can't tell you how useful and eye opening that program has been (It pretty much does ICM analysis for you).

[DDH]

Just putting more emphasis on what has been said about moving up limits. Becuse of my bankroll, I started out at the 5s, played those till I had anouogh money to play the 10s, and played those till I know have a large enough bankroll to play the 20s.

Yes, the play in the five is very loose and carefree, but use them to work on making good poker decisions. Yes, I'd get sucked out, yes, I got beat with hands that people have no reason playing, but as long as I was making the right decisions I felt I was okay. And I learned more and more through playing how to make those decisions. Then I moved up to the 10s, the play was a little more sane, and I was a little better player then when I started the 5s, the same was true for when I started the 20s. I learned more about poker and how I wanted to play and my style in the 10s and when I had the bankroll to move up to the 20s, I was a better player then when I started the 10s. And now, in the 20s, I'm still learning. Things that I may have been able to do in the 10s won't work as well, so I have to learn new things.

Read the books, read the threads listed here, and most importantly, don't expect to happen quickly. I've been playing for about 15 months now, and while I'm a better player now then I was, I still knwo that I'm nothing great. I'm not a bad player, but I hesitate to label myself as anything better then "above average." But I'm learning, and I know I'm getting better. That's the most important hting for me.

[SonnyJay]

Just a quick note on the buyin level:
If you're playing a $5 SNG that's a 5+.50, then it's fine, but if you're playing Party you're much better off playing the 10+1 instead of the 5+1. Beating a $1 rake in a $10 tournament is much easier than doing it in a $5 tournament. If your bankroll can support it make sure you aren't paying more than 10% rake.

-SonnyJay

[tigerite]

Citanul will be pissed that you wrote that..

Similarly I should play the $215s because it's less rake, I guess? It doesn't always follow. It's not wise to have a stab at the $11s when your bankroll is around $180, but that is 30 buyins at the $6s.

[SonnyJay]

Obviously, I made the "if your bankroll can support it" disclaimer. I personally don't feel that the play difference is significant between the $6s and the $11s, though obviously there's a big difference between the $55s and the $215, never mind bankroll constraints.

*EDIT: For example, with your $180 example I can see the $6s as a viable option, but if I'm sitting on $300 and it seems like I can beat the $6s I don't think you're going to face much tougher play going up to the $11s.

Just to clarify.

-SonnyJay

[tigerite]

I know, but if I don't post it, he will.. and he'll still be pissed.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
I hesitate to label myself as anything better then "above average."

[/ QUOTE ]

Me, too. But that's because the average is so low. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Citanul will be pissed that you wrote that..

Similarly I should play the $215s because it's less rake, I guess? It doesn't always follow. It's not wise to have a stab at the $11s when your bankroll is around $180, but that is 30 buyins at the $6s.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i ever had a 16 buyin downswing in the 11s i would probably never play poker again. if you have 180, there is no way you shouldnt be playing the 10s. who cares if the ror is a tiny bit higher. dont donk off chips early and you will be fine. holla

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the true fundementals of the game and wanted to use the sit and go's to pratice, learn and gain experience.

[/ QUOTE ] SNGs probably aren't the best training ground if you want to eventually play "good poker". SNG are quite a bit different from a ring game -- some would say there is much less skill involved in a SNG.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the true fundementals of the game and wanted to use the sit and go's to pratice, learn and gain experience.

[/ QUOTE ] SNGs probably aren't the best training ground if you want to eventually play "good poker". SNG are quite a bit different from a ring game -- some would say there is much less skill involved in a SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not less, but different. A good cash game player folds and folds and folds, a lot. You can actually sit at a Party NL table and push all in with AA and make money. (Somebody will call.) I've got stats on rocks with 8% VP$iP who are making money. I doubt very many SNG players are making money seeing only 8% of hands. You have to play a bit more hands to make a little more money, but it can be done in a cash game.

However, I doubt many SNG players can translate their skills into crushing a cash game. If anything, they'd LAG it up and get hurt.

Different skill set.

CJ

I downloaded pokerstove and I really like it. Having an engineering degree, this kind of thinking has always been interesting to me. I will probably spend many hours dorking it out(thats what my wife calls it) /images/graemlins/grin.gif going over diffrent hands.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice I have recieved in this thread.