Feminism, misogyny, and the modern American man

[coffeecrazy1]

This is inspired by the "girls are annoying" post.

For many years, men and women in the US resided in their respective gender-specific roles. Then, more recently, women decided they did not like their role, and fought back with various equality movements...some successful(suffrage), some not(ERA). However, one lasting result of the feminist movement is empowered women commandeering traditional male points of view(I'm speaking in terms of societal norms, not economic or political).

With this movement, men have become more and more feminized as time has gone by, never more evident than in the character of Ross on "Friends." More recently, there has been a bit of a backlash to this concept, with men acting decidedly more "chauvinistic" and exhibiting behaviors that are misogynistic in nature...where it boils down to essentially objectifying women to the point that they are simply points on a scoreboard (see also Tom Leykis and askmen.com).

Essentially, in popular culture, men are characterized as sissy-boy sycophants to the Almighty Woman, or apelike, overgrown children who are budding rapists, abusers, and deadbeats. Both of these POVs seem like extremes. Where is the middle ground? Where does the happy medium exist where we, as men, can treat women as fellow human beings, but not remove our testicles in the process? Or, does such a place not exist, and do we need to move to one camp or the other, and stay there?

I'm just curious...because after 26 years, I have never been more baffled about how to relate to women.

[asofel]

Be who you say you are, do what you say you'll do, let the rest fall in place.

[amoeba]

I think the key is to change gears and keep your opponent confused.

The answer is to ignore popular culture.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to ignore popular culture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. Not likely.

OP - I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying that because pop culture shapes female expectations, guys, to get chicks, should conform to pop culture stereotypes of men? And that this is confusing, because there are 2 very extremely different stereotypes that exist? (Meaning, what to choose?)

1) I think most women prefer a gentleman, which, it seems, would fall in-between these 2 stereotypes.
2) I think most women, if you are going to err on one side of the stereotype, prefer manlier men to pussies.
3) What women want are not only informed by pop culture, but hard-wired in their biology - women want to be taken care of (i.e. be manly).
4) I think you greatly exaggerate the persistence of the "pussy" male stereotype. Who likes a wuss? No one respects that.

apparently great minds think alike (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=373162 5&Searchpage=1&Main=3723653&Words=vindication+behe moth2006&topic=&Search=true#Post3731625)

[offTopic]

I'm going to respond to this as soon as I finish cooking dinner.

Yeah, hey, because no one actually answered my opinions in that first post I linked to, would yall mind checkin that out and responding to it as well?

this is why I like OOT...

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, hey, because no one actually answered my opinions in that first post I linked to, would yall mind checkin that out and responding to it as well?

this is why I like OOT...

[/ QUOTE ]

OK (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3854305&page=0&vc=1)

haha, no I meant respond to it here, Im not a fan of SMP anymore.

but thanks for the help!

hope dinner is good... I had ramen.

[TheMainEvent]

I think women want men to be "manly"...by that I mean confident, fearless, able to compose themselves in difficult situations. These characteristics are associated with traditional chauvanistic men rather than "metrosexuals", but there is really no direct connection between how much of a man you are and whether you spend $200 or $15 dollars on a shirt or what kind of beer you drink.

I really would have to disagree... in long term relationships it seems that women want to be able to brag to their chick friends how they "trained" us, and how we would be helpless without them.

It would be interesting to discuss though, if women feel differently about guys that they just wanna screw?

[Dominic]

Simple:

Be courteous, charming and smart. And above all, be your own man. Always assume a woman is talking to you for the pleasure of your company and not in order to get free drinks or meals. How do you know this is the case? By not offering these things to women you don't know.

A woman is attracted to a Man - not a sensitive wimp and not a complete [censored]. One who pursues her and doesn't seem desperate. A Man will let a woman know immediately if he is attracted to her and would like to go out with her, and will not be embarrassed to do so. If the woman does not return the interest, or is one who apt to play games or make the Man jump through relationship/dating hoops, he moves on to the next woman.

Because a real man, while not abusive or rude to women, also knows there are plenty of other women out there who will go out, sleep, fall in love with him. And would be lucky to do so.

[coffeecrazy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to ignore popular culture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. Not likely.

OP - I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying that because pop culture shapes female expectations, guys, to get chicks, should conform to pop culture stereotypes of men? And that this is confusing, because there are 2 very extremely different stereotypes that exist? (Meaning, what to choose?)

1) I think most women prefer a gentleman, which, it seems, would fall in-between these 2 stereotypes.
2) I think most women, if you are going to err on one side of the stereotype, prefer manlier men to pussies.
3) What women want are not only informed by pop culture, but hard-wired in their biology - women want to be taken care of (i.e. be manly).
4) I think you greatly exaggerate the persistence of the "pussy" male stereotype. Who likes a wuss? No one respects that.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are confused by my post, it is simply because I was confused when I wrote it... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif...basically...it seems like we have two working stereotypes today, and neither one seems to be very conducive to healthy relationships, platonic or romantic.

So...that was the point, but I understand this really isn't all that original or new.

I couldnt agree more...

but thats kinda not the point (my point at least) Im wondering if anyone else sees this?

[tonypaladino]

Feminism Rocks

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2241/ironmyshirtbitch3ng.jpg

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
I really would have to disagree... in long term relationships it seems that women want to be able to brag to their chick friends how they "trained" us, and how we would be helpless without them.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's definitely a category of woman that wants to wear the pants in the relationship. But at the end of the day, I bet, like most women, they want a a real man who can / will take care of them.

And the Raymond reference in your SMP thread (that he is an annoying pussy) is totally true - but I don't think women necesssarily want to date him. They are, after all, laughing at his pussy antics...

So I don't think pop culture, despite the seeming prevlance of loser-ish "Ross" like characters, is necessarily impacting women's expectations.

My guess is women have wanted the same thing for generations now, and there's very little pop culture can do to change that.

[Phoenix1010]

Eh, close and yet way off at the same time. This issue is way too deep for this forum.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

Coffee, you've got two problems:

1) You see a false dilemma. There is no conflict between being a man and being a feminist. They are not mutually exclusive.
2) You believe pop culture represents reality. This simply isn't true.

Go back to Critical Thinking 101 and then take Feminism 101 again.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
I really would have to disagree... in long term relationships it seems that women want to be able to brag to their chick friends how they "trained" us, and how we would be helpless without them.

It would be interesting to discuss though, if women feel differently about guys that they just wanna screw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Women want a man that they can "train" So don't be a puss, cuz they don't want a man that's already trained /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
This is inspired by the "girls are annoying" post.

For many years, men and women in the US resided in their respective gender-specific roles. Then, more recently, women decided they did not like their role, and fought back with various equality movements...some successful(suffrage), some not(ERA). However, one lasting result of the feminist movement is empowered women commandeering traditional male points of view(I'm speaking in terms of societal norms, not economic or political).

With this movement, men have become more and more feminized as time has gone by, never more evident than in the character of Ross on "Friends." More recently, there has been a bit of a backlash to this concept, with men acting decidedly more "chauvinistic" and exhibiting behaviors that are misogynistic in nature...where it boils down to essentially objectifying women to the point that they are simply points on a scoreboard (see also Tom Leykis and askmen.com).

Essentially, in popular culture, men are characterized as sissy-boy sycophants to the Almighty Woman, or apelike, overgrown children who are budding rapists, abusers, and deadbeats. Both of these POVs seem like extremes. Where is the middle ground? Where does the happy medium exist where we, as men, can treat women as fellow human beings, but not remove our testicles in the process? Or, does such a place not exist, and do we need to move to one camp or the other, and stay there?

I'm just curious...because after 26 years, I have never been more baffled about how to relate to women.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey if you want to be a wuss be a wuss and you will find a woman who wants a wuss. If you want to be a man be a man and you will find a woman that wants a man.

Oh yeah and what dominic said and what asofel said.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to respond to this as soon as I finish cooking dinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Truth be told, if you're going to divide household chores up with a woman, the guy should always pick cooking. Why?

1. Women love guys who can cook.
2. Awesome kitchen gadgets.
3. He who cooks dinner gets to pick what's for dinner.

I cannot speak for all women, but with me, it is really quite simple, sir:

If the chemistry and vibes are right, challenge me to chess, poker, or wrestling. Mmmm...As far as I am concerned, no matter who wins, we both win.

[Blarg]

There's something primal about cooking. Cooking = love, kinda, and it's hard to not appreciate it unless you're a louse or the person is not just a medicore cook but clearly doesn't give a rat's ass what you eat. And those problems are more about other things than cooking.

That cliche about the way to a man's heart being through his stomach has a lot to it. I think it's primal enough that it works that way on women too. For somewhat different reasons, but it winds up working pretty good either way.

Definitely, if you're going to pick anything around the house to do, cooking is probably the most rewarding and pleasurable thing to do. Sometimes it's even more fun seeing someone else enjoy your meal than it is to eat it yourself. You know, in a non-gay way.