Mirage 10-20: Rolling in Clover

[Dynasty]

This Mirage 10-20 hand is from an early Monday morning session (~2:00am). The game is very loose, not too aggressive, and 7-handed at the moment.

The hand:

An EP open limps. It's folded to the Small Blind who completes. Both these players are playing lots of hands. The Small Blind in particular isn't showing strength unless he has something. The EP will occassionally bluff or bet weak hands.

I'm in the big blind with K/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/club.gif. I check my option and the three of us take the flop for one bet each.

The flop is: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif4/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Small Blind checks. I check. EP bets. Small Blind calls. I call. All three of us see the turn with 3 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif4/forums/images/icons/club.gifA/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Small Blind bets out. I call. EP calls. All three of us see the river with 6 big bets in the pot.

The river is: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif4/forums/images/icons/club.gifA/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif5/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Small Blind checks. I bet. EP calls. Small Blind calls. The winner of the pot scoops in 9 big bets.

[Barry]

It seems that you played this very passively. Why not raise somewhere along the way? I guess (hope) that you were planning on checkraising the turn, but that was foiled when SB bet the turn. After that, were you expecting EP to raise the turn so you could 3-bet? I think you need to at least raise the SB bet here. You didn't charge the big /forums/images/icons/club.gif's very much to continue their draws.

I'm getting more fond of betting out on the flop. Most of the time, people won't put you on a made flush and you'll get a fair amount of action. Heck you might even get raised by a T or the A /forums/images/icons/club.gif's. At any rate planning on waiting until the turn to show aggression is OK too, but you didn't do that either.

EP could have a T or a smaller flush; SB might have the A /forums/images/icons/club.gif's. If they have hands like that, they're not going to fold to a turn raise.

[CrackerZack]

I hope you enjoyed the 9 BBs. I'm not sure if I like the turn call or if the raise should've been there. I feel like I would've raised, but then EP will fold and I don't think SB will call the river if he calls the raise at all so the overcall is probably best. and EP would've raised the turn with the Ace high flush, and SB would've bet the river with it. So I think you beat two weak 1-pair hands and I'm entertain that a different person bet each round post flop.

[Noo Yawk]

I love the fact that you never got impatient and raised the turn. It's interesting that all three streets saw a different player taking the initiative.
For all the posters that thought a bet or raise was in order, Dynasty would have lost bets by raising the turn or the flop. Had the bet on the turn come from EP with a call by SB, then a raise would be in order.
Had his flush been smaller, then he would need to protetct it.
It never ceases to amaze me how often people jam their big hands with paying customers left to act behind them.
I think he played this hand well. Everyone stayed in and paid him off on every street.

[rtrombone]

In retrospect, Dynasty made the most that he could have. His flat call at the turn would have been a mistake, however, if SB held the A /forums/images/icons/club.gif (or another hand he would've called a raise with) and EP did not call the one bet.

I would have been tempted to check-raise the flop after they had both called. Dynasty, did you call at the turn because it looked like EP was going to call or maybe raise?

[Noo Yawk]

You can't be worried about one specific card drawing to 7 outs. Raising the flop or turn with a king high flush is a classic hold em mistake with players left to act. If someone has an ace-high flush or hits on the river, then, oh well, you pay them off. By raising, the Only hands that a reasonable player is going to give any action to is a set, two pair or the lone Ace of clubs with another player left to act behind them.
You may very well lose the SB by raising here as well.
By calling the turn, Dynasty is allowing himself a shot a two possibilities, a raise from EP or a call. A fold by EP would have happened by a call or a raise anyway if he feared the flush or the Ace, so why not take the best path in givng him some rope. The key here is not losing the SB along with the EP. These hands are hard to come by, and you need to keep people in to pay you off.

[mike l.]

well thank god someone around here finally waited until a later street to show strength. i like that you didnt bet or checkraise the flop best of all. well played.

[mike l.]

cool im glad people agree this was well played. normally around here it'd go this way:

"i bet the flop and reraised after someone else raised, we lost one player and the guy behind me folded to my bet on the turn. i never posted the hand, nor do i ever worry about the bets i lose by playing my best hands too fast on the flop. but at least you cant ever accuse me of slowplaying, god forbid."

[Ulysses]

I usually bet the flop in this situation. 3-handed w/ one guy left to act, I'll bet a very wide range of hands, so I'm not worried about killing the action. The way you played it seems OK, though. Had SB checked again on the turn, would you have bet or checked again?

It would be surprising if you didn't win the pot, but I guess EP could have flopped the nuts and lost out on quite a few bets by not raising the turn.

[Ulysses]

well thank god someone around here finally waited until a later street to show strength.

mike, how much strength are you really showing by betting a T64 single-suit flop as the second of three players?

[rtrombone]

It depends on the game, I guess. If you're in the type of game where people will call just to look you up, or you're the type of player that doesn't arouse suspicion when you bet or call, then certainly you should check and call to encourage overcalls.

But if you're in a game where the only people who are going to call are those with outs, it is a gigantic mistake not to bet/raise/reraise.

Looks like Dynasty had a good understanding of the game he was in, and of his opponents.

Didn't HPFAP specifically say that it's usually not correct to slowplay even the nut flush? I'm just not sure this isn't one of those situations where you're only going to get action from hands that will call bets and raises, so you may as well decloak at some point.

[AceHigh]

I think you milked every bit of EV you could out of this hand, well played.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You lost, didn't you.

I like your flat calling, going for the overcall on each round. The minute you show strength by raising, anyone who's got no club will probably be gone, and you'd rather have their money.

I suspect you were rolling in clover because you'da lost more if someone more aggressive had the nut flush.

al

[elysium]

hi dynasty
i see you threw your opponents a curve ball on this one. let's see.....hmmmmm. whew, .....and what a curve ball dynasty. great play!

but i don't know. the best way of achieveing deception in this game i suppose is to raise your skill level higher. and that's why i like posting it just like it is. i think we can maintain deception and get the necessary criticism by posting the hand like it is and keeping our unique areas of play outside of the discussion. how else do we learn?

[Dynasty]

Of course, I won the pot.

EP was rather surprised when I showed my hand. He didn't show his. Small Blind had A/forums/images/icons/club.gifJ/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

[Dynasty]

I think you need to at least raise the SB bet here. You didn't charge the big /forums/images/icons/club.gif's very much to continue their draws.

With only two opponents, I doubted there was a big club out there. I thought it was very likely that both opponents were drawing nearly dead on the flop and completely dead on the turn (because the board didn't pair). One bet per round is a good amount to charge opponents who are drawing dead, especially when you don't have many opponents.

As it turned out, the A/forums/images/icons/club.gif was out there. I thought that was possible when the Small Blind bet the turn. But, I doubted it.

[Dynasty]

Dynasty, did you call at the turn because it looked like EP was going to call or maybe raise?

I thought they were drawing dead and was more than willing to let them pay just one bet per street to get to the showdown.