TT, rate my play.

[Bob T.]

3-6 kill game on UB. This is a kill pot.

Tight passive limps UTG. Loose random and tricky checks the kill blind in MP. I have the black tens on the button, and overlimp. The SB folds, and the tight aggressive BB completes.

Flop 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, and I call, and the BB folds.

Turn 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets, MP raises, I threebet, and both call.

River T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

UTG checks, MP bets, I raise, and both call.

What do you think they held, and what do you think about my play?

[ErrantNight]

C+

I'd raise preflop in a heartbeat, and I'm not sure why you didn't. Had you raised, and UTG bets the flop, I like waiting for the turn. Here, unless I'm counting the size of the pot wrong, I'd like to raise the flop, although I'm not entirely against waiting for the turn. Given your read, the way this played out, turn and river seem standard.

[ZenMusician]

I don't understand the pf overlimp and your flop play.

The read of the hand would be much different with a
pf raise and a flop raise, no?

-ZEN

[Bob T.]

The read of the hand would be much different with a
pf raise and a flop raise, no?
Yes.

I don't understand the pf overlimp and your flop play.


Well, let's just say that I don't think that the play that I made on every street was consistant with my thinking on other streets.

Preflop, I was concerned because a fairly tight player had entered the pot UTG, and I was thinking that I didn't want to be building a pot for him, instead of me. I also thought that although my raise would be for value against the kill blind, that I might be able to get more value later on.

On the flop, I thought that with the drawish board, and last position, I would get more value raising my overpair on the turn, if I didn't find the turn card scary.

Then after I played the first two streets passively, I get aggressive when it was two bets to me on the turn /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[hellite]

this is in all honesty, terrible or "not rated". You are just waiting for someone to beat you here; raise preflop; raise and reraise flop etc... this is good drawing board and you do nothing to protect / tax. poor play. This is standard fare.

[ErrantNight]

fwiw i thought your turn play was consistent with your reads and your flop play. i just think your preflop reasoning sucks.

[bakku]

hey bob,

the tight passive UTG limper doesn't concern me. you have TT, the 5th best starting hand. unless he only limps UTG w/ a high PP, i can't think of a single good reason why you should limp here. given that the pot and field are so small because of your preflop limp, raise the flop

[sean c]

What if the turn brought paint or a spade?

[Bob T.]

I agree, I thought that I played this hand really poorly.

As it turned out, UTG had AA, and MP had 88, and I was in third place after the turn. I really can't imagine why neither of them made it four bets there.

Fortunately, I caught good on the river, and won a nice pot, but I could maybe have made better decisions on the big bet streets, if I had raised preflop and/or on the flop.

It really annoyed me that I made it three bets at the time I had the third best hand.

[lufbradolly]

Grunch

I'd raise preflop.

I'd raise the flop.

Probably just call the turn against unknowns but given the reads a 3bet seems fine.

The river plays itself.

[Soh]

"I was concerned because a fairly tight player had entered the pot UTG..."

Unless he's one of those limp re-raiser, you have a better hand than him, so you should raise.

3 bet pf, get the BB out, and you ussually buy yourself 4 or 8 more outs.

weak tight

[droolie]

I raise this pf. I don't want the kill to get a free look at the flop with J2o or something. I'm really happy if this gets 3-way pf.

I don't hate waiting for the turn to raise and think it was nicely executed given the MP being tricky. I usually raise this flop and see what happens as the board is drawy and I'd like to see how the others react to my raise. I think it makes the rest of the hand easier to play.


I would have guessed UTG had a split pair with an A kicker and possibly a turned flush draw. The kill could reasonably have anything since he got a free look. A random spilt pair or two pair on the turn with either str8 or flush outs seems most likely.

Your early passivity and their weird reaction to your turn 3-bet made this hand exceedingly difficult to put them on the hands they actually held. Nice catch on the river.

[ErrantNight]

the board being drawy is precisely why waiting for the turn is ok...

[AaronS]

I definately raise this preflop. However, since you didn't, I think you can make a good argument for the flop call. This hand is pretty similar to the chapter in SSHE about waiting for the turn to raise. I think are often ahead on the flop, but your equity edge can't be huge with all the draws/overcards that can beat you. The turn will change your equity dramatically, so you can wait for a safe card to raise. That being said, you might be able to knock out the BB with a flop raise. Just my two-cents, I dont know which play is better.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, I thought that I played this hand really poorly.

As it turned out, UTG had AA, and MP had 88, and I was in third place after the turn. I really can't imagine why neither of them made it four bets there.

Fortunately, I caught good on the river, and won a nice pot, but I could maybe have made better decisions on the big bet streets, if I had raised preflop and/or on the flop.

It really annoyed me that I made it three bets at the time I had the third best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, your opponents played it worse than you.

[slavic]

Hi Bob, nice to see you.

So Tight Passive limps, and let's assume he's you typical tight passive. That means KQo or better on his limp. Though I think there are a few hands he'll raise anyway, but that depends on how passive. It's not a big set of hands though.

AQ AK possibly AJs possibly not AJo pairs TT and higher and depending on how he feels even KK and AA. MP we have no info on, even if you raise he will likely play, I would say that whatever UTG is playing he makes a mistake allowing the MP player to have a free look with position. Now you have a nice hand, but it's a hand that I constantly debate if I have value raising preflop or not. If this wasn't a kill pot I'd probably entertain the idea of limping because we are going to see this hand 4 ways most of the time, and my hand loses most of its equity at 4 handed limping gives me a fair shot a 5 handed. In this case you are looking at 3 handed or maybe even heads up with a raise.

I think you have to raise.

On the flop, we have 4 players on a bad draw board for our vulnerable overpair. So do we have flop equity? If we do it's not much, can we increase our equity with a raise? Well maybe, but again not by much and we make it correct for several hands to call us on the turn.

So what does UTG have? What does he bet out with here? Overpair? certainly, AKs - AJs, KQs likely. Others? maybe but I doubt it. Yea I don't like raising hte flop.

[bobhalford]

I don't think the preflop and flop calls are very good. Not raising preflop is a big mistake, it's like you want to lose to Q8s or KT. Then you decide on the flop to slowplay your strong, but vulnerable hand. You have little information about your opponents' likely holdings, which makes post-flop decisions more difficult. It's difficult to comment much on the rest considering how wrong the hand is played before the turn.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you decide on the flop to slowplay your strong, but vulnerable hand. You have little information about your opponents' likely holdings, which makes post-flop decisions more difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Bob-

I think your right preflop, but on the flop I don't think so. Even though we know little of MP's hand range, we can narrow UTG fairly well, and the BB's likely hands also fit into a narrower range than random. Even had we raised preflop, we might be able to narrow the BB's and UTG's hands a little more but that information isn't that much of an improvement. Would we be able to narrow MP's hand with a preflop raise? Well if he folds then yes, but if he calls, or reraises? He still looks like an open book to me.

Good players entering the pot in full games UTG, says quite a bit.

Now as for BobT's original decision preflop, I'm sure he was of the mind that "hey I have a nice hand, I should raise here, however UTG's range of hands really isn't something I like, MP isn't leaving, I'm not really comfortable with that raise now, but I darn sure can't fold. OK I'll compromise and call." That compromise play seems to almost always be wrong.

[bobhalford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then you decide on the flop to slowplay your strong, but vulnerable hand. You have little information about your opponents' likely holdings, which makes post-flop decisions more difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Bob-

I think your right preflop, but on the flop I don't think so. Even though we know little of MP's hand range, we can narrow UTG fairly well, and the BB's likely hands also fit into a narrower range than random. Even had we raised preflop, we might be able to narrow the BB's and UTG's hands a little more but that information isn't that much of an improvement. Would we be able to narrow MP's hand with a preflop raise? Well if he folds then yes, but if he calls, or reraises? He still looks like an open book to me.

Good players entering the pot in full games UTG, says quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi slavic - You make a good point. UTG's bet is worrisome, but would be much more to worry about if paint had fallen on the flop. Sets like 99 and 88 are betworthy of course, but what else? All I can see is JT or JTs, or something like two big spade cards. Certainly he is not betting out with 77 and below. He is tight and passive (not sure if passive means preflop or postflop, but I'll assume postflop) so I don't see anything on this board that UTG beats on the flop other than the 3 available sets. Would not raising allow hero to charge his opponents for their draws and acquire more information (will UTG just call or 3-bet a raise? If he 3-bets, then hero figures that UTG is not on a draw since he is a passive player and would not be aggressive with a come hand...however, JT of spades might be a hand that he can be aggressive with since he has a zillions outs...anyway there aren't that many combinations of JT).

So maybe it's not a big deal either way. Waiting for the expensive street might be a good idea, since hero can raise when a blank falls and force his opponents into making a mistake by calling the raise. But what if a spade or A/K/Q hit? A flop raise might convince the others to check to him on the turn when a bad card comes. Then hero can check behind and avoid a possible checkraise. Then just call a river bet if he thinks he's good 1 in 10 times or whatever the odds are.

I'm interested in this hand because I'm the type of player that likes to get my money in when I think I have the best hand. I wonder how much I am giving up by not waiting until the turn. I wait for the turn when I have a set, but not TT on a board consisting of cards lower than a T.

[Bob T.]

Preflop - [ QUOTE ]
Now as for BobT's original decision preflop, I'm sure he was of the mind that "hey I have a nice hand, I should raise here, however UTG's range of hands really isn't something I like, MP isn't leaving, I'm not really comfortable with that raise now, but I darn sure can't fold. OK I'll compromise and call." That compromise play seems to almost always be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop. I was concerned that the tight passive players bet meant that I was behind, and even if I was ahead, I wasn't going to get the most equity by raising here, because noone was going to leave, except maybe the BB, who as a fairly tight player, would probably fold most hands for one bet that he would fold for two. I didn't think that I could increase my equity by raisng on the flop by as much as I could be raising the turn.

On the turn, things went wrong. My plan was to raise the likely bet by UTG and call by MP, but MP raised. Even though MP is a fairly loose player, he was rational, and he probably realized that UTG's bet on the flop and turn meant something, and MP's raise here in a three way pot, means that he can beat top pair. I'm only just better than top pair, and this seems like a good time to throw my overpair away, but I didn't. I followed through with my plan, and threebet the apparently safe card. (Well it was safe, it didn't improve either of the hands that were already ahead of me /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

I think that MP really should have capped this turn, but he didn't.

The river plays itself, I think its interesting that MP bet out on the river after he called on the turn.

One side note, is that both of my opponents impressed me afterward, because they didn't comment on my play on this hand.

I think that if I raised either preflop, or on the flop, I probably could have gotten away from the hand correctly based on the likely turn action.