For those considering folding KK preflop in a $10+1 (LC)

[jedinite]

Background: thanks to Poker Tracker's recently added ability to show hourly rate, I'd decided it was time to think about developing my SNG repertoire to include the ability to play three or four tables at the same time (I currently two-table the SNGs that I play, sometimes with a third table running a multi-table tournament at the same time). Rather than start out three or four tabling my current level of $30+3, I decided I'd hop back down to the $10+1 and start practicing there. This was the first hand of a $10+1 that was part of a four-tabling session.

Small sample size - but i'll stick with the strategy of never folding KK preflop at this level, thank you.

Sorry for the lack of conversion on the HH, can't get it to work correctly for the all-ins so I figured the raw HH with the correct details was better...

***** Hand History for Game 2971373428 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:17089336 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Wednesday, November 02, 21:54:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 67072 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 8: Performify ( $800 )
Seat 5: bvb31 ( $800 )
Seat 7: glong2002 ( $800 )
Seat 6: JRockSlim ( $800 )
Seat 4: demo212 ( $800 )
Seat 1: domadoda ( $800 )
Seat 9: jca_8402 ( $800 )
Seat 10: generationy ( $800 )
Seat 2: jwwoods ( $800 )
Seat 3: mickpar ( $800 )
Trny:17089336 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Performify [ Kh Ks ]
jca_8402 folds.
generationy calls [15].
domadoda folds.
jwwoods folds.
mickpar folds.
demo212 folds.
bvb31 folds.
JRockSlim raises [50].
glong2002 calls [40].
Performify raises [335].
generationy is all-In.
JRockSlim is all-In.
jca_8402: lol
glong2002 folds.
Performify is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, 2s, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
Performify shows [ Kh, Ks ] a full house, Fives full of kings.
generationy shows [ 4s, 4d ] a full house, Fives full of fours.
JRockSlim shows [ Qc, Ah ] three of a kind, fives.
Performify wins 2450 chips from the main pot with a full house, Fives full of kings.
generationy finished in ninth place.
JRockSlim finished in ninth place.
JRockSlim has left the table.
generationy has left the table.

[Hornacek]

http://www.terrysgourmetcookies.com/ProductImages/CHOCCHIP.jpg

Here you go.

[splashpot]

You think that's bad? This was from a $55. Sucked that I lost though.

***** Hand History for Game 2972657227 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:17095588 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, November 03, 01:38:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 68031 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Deceptikon ( $970 )
Seat 9: valorous ( $1380 )
Seat 6: ILIKESCOTCH2 ( $390 )
Seat 5: yeedogger ( $1255 )
Seat 4: empireny ( $2942 )
Seat 3: grizabe ( $1130 )
Seat 2: OreoMonster ( $835 )
Seat 10: accentprpl5 ( $1098 )
Trny:17095588 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to yeedogger [ Kh Kc ]
ILIKESCOTCH2 folds.
valorous is all-In.
accentprpl5 folds.
Deceptikon is all-In.
OreoMonster is all-In.
grizabe folds.
empireny folds.
yeedogger is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 4d, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
yeedogger shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and threes.
valorous shows [ Td, Tc ] two pairs, tens and threes.
Deceptikon shows [ Kd, Ac ] a straight, ace to five.
OreoMonster shows [ Jd, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
valorous wins 125 chips from side pot #3 with two pairs, tens and threes.
yeedogger wins 570 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, kings and threes.
Deceptikon wins 405 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ace to five.
Deceptikon wins 3390 chips from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.
OreoMonster finished in eighth place.
OreoMonster has left the table.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
Small sample size - but i'll stick with the strategy of never folding KK preflop at this level, thank you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, Captain Obvious. I anxiously await your post explaining the color of the sky being blue.

Seriously though, at exactly what level are you considering folding KK pre-flop?

Me, I'm not folding KK pre-flop at any level.

Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[durron597]

$27 turbo.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t60, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t270</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t210, MP2 calls t210, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1500</font>, Hero calls t1230 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t1230 (All-In), MP2 calls t1230 (All-In).

Flop: (t6030) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 4 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t6030) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 4 all-in)</font>

River: (t6030) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 4 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t6030

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you. I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.

[playtitleist]

At the 11s it's QQ too.

Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: jackiedymond (800)
Seat 2: corstar111 (800)
Seat 3: playtitleist (800)
Seat 4: Zwizz1 (800)
Seat 5: Weto19 (800)
Seat 6: b00f00 (800)
Seat 7: knox1000 (800)
Seat 8: ebstarz09 (800)
Seat 9: DoDont1 (800)
Seat 10: skier333 (800)
corstar111 posts small blind (10)
playtitleist posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ Qh, Qs ]
Zwizz1 raises (30) to 30
Weto19 folds.
b00f00 folds.
knox1000 folds.
ebstarz09 folds.
DoDont1 folds.
skier333 raises (800) to 800
skier333 is all-In.
jackiedymond folds.
corstar111 folds.
playtitleist calls (785)
playtitleist is all-In.
Zwizz1 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1640 with playtitleist,skier333
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ad, 2s, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1640
Board: [ Ad 2s 9c 2c 4c ]
jackiedymond balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
corstar111 balance 790, lost 10 (folded)
playtitleist balance 1640, bet 800, collected 1640, net +840 [ Qh Qs ] [ two pairs, queens and twos -- Ad,Qh,Qs,2s,2c ]
Zwizz1 balance 770, lost 30 (folded)
Weto19 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
b00f00 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
knox1000 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
ebstarz09 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
DoDont1 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
skier333 balance 0, lost 800 [ 9h Jh ] [ two pairs, nines and twos -- Ad,9h,9c,2s,2c ]

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is just what they tell you in their books----- but you'd be hard pressed to see them actually laying down KK to an all-in before them.

[ QUOTE ]

I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because live poker is rigged...

[Nicholasp27]

that's because kk and aa are more likely than other hands to get it all in pf...so kk will come up against aa pf all-in more often...and since it only has 2 outs (besides flush/straight draws), it gets beat often when it crosses AA

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is just what they tell you in their books----- but you'd be hard pressed to see them actually laying down KK to an all-in before them.

[ QUOTE ]

I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because live poker is rigged...

[/ QUOTE ]

wait til u see mike the mouth at the final table then...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, at exactly what level are you considering folding KK pre-flop?

Me, I'm not folding KK pre-flop at any level.

Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

your statement is arrogant and ignorant. you should work on that going forward.

c

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, Captain Obvious. I anxiously await your post explaining the color of the sky being blue.

Seriously though, at exactly what level are you considering folding KK pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll cut you some slack because of the newbie moniker.

But #1 the (LC) in my title stands for "low content" meaning you shouldn't be looking here for in-depth strategy.

and #2 there's been a lot of discussion in the recent past re: folding as good as KK preflop in the first two rounds of the low buyin SNGs with a couple all-ins in front. Most of what i'd consider the rational opinion is that its still crazy to pass up those kind of edges at the lower level because the play is so bad, i.e. people thinking they can pass up a "early edge for a later, greater edge" when we're talking about KK preflop at the $10+1 are probably mistaken..

[citanul]

has there really been a lot of that recently? i must have missed it. i don't think i've seen very many posts on this subject at all lately.

c

For the guy who said harrington tells you to fold to an all in with KK?

NO he doesnt, there's a two page section wherein he tells you that he called all-in, although he was fairly sure the guy had AA because "no one is that savvy".

[Freudian]

I folded QQ to a UTG 6xBB raise + UTG+1 call in level 1 today. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
has there really been a lot of that recently? i must have missed it. i don't think i've seen very many posts on this subject at all lately.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe a lot is overstating it. But IIRC there have been several such comments in the past two, maybe three weeks. They were quickly beat down by the forum illuminati, but it was still said. It sparked enough in my mind to comment anyways - no big deal.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

your statement is arrogant and ignorant. you should work on that going forward.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

My saying I don't fold KK pre-flop is arrogant and ignorant?

Sorry if it offended you, hoss...but my thoughts on that one ain't changing.

[ QUOTE ]
hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't fold 27o if the tourney buyin happened to be my wife and kids. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded QQ to a UTG 6xBB raise + UTG+1 call in level 1 today. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In the 22s? And are you proud of that? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

your statement is arrogant and ignorant. you should work on that going forward.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

My saying I don't fold KK pre-flop is arrogant and ignorant?

Sorry if it offended you, hoss...but my thoughts on that one ain't changing.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, for instance, what buyins of sngs have you played? what types of mtts? what stack depths? have you been successful at any of them?

while your origianl statement remains arrogant and ignorant, your new statement that you won't change your thinking on something no matter what, might just trump it in both regards.

c

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I folded QQ to a UTG 6xBB raise + UTG+1 call in level 1 today. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In the 22s? And are you proud of that? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I'm pretty sure I was behind, I'm fine with it.

[sng-sam]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.terrysgourmetcookies.com/ProductImages/CHOCCHIP.jpg

Here you go.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH SIR

[TheNoodleMan]

I guess going from "should I fold AA preflop?" to "should I fold KK preflop?" is step in the right direction for the forum.
I guess. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Hendricks433]

He was making point to not ever fold KK pf. It wasnt a bad beat post.

[kyro]

This is a poor reason not to ever fold KK preflop. Hell, I'll dig through some old HHs and post a hand where similar action occured and one of them actually had AA and say "you should fold KK preflop!" But I won't, because that's silly, much like this post.

[jedinite]

This wasn't exactly meant to be some insightful strategy post.

But I do fall in to the camp of "wrong to fold KK preflop at a $10+1".

/shocked this has elicited so much discussion. Slow day, I guess...

Hi. I believe that moderator, citanul, with these posts, is perfectly describing one part of crossing the line between a good SNG player and an excellent SNG player...the ability to change one's mind, grow, and finally even fold KK preflop in the face of certain rare game conditions. I strongly suspect that part of the arsenal of many truly great SNG players would be the ability and will to fold AA if it was absolutely correct to do so...which would be in extremely rare game conditions that one probably would not encounter more than once or twice in a long SNG career.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi. I believe that moderator, citanul, with these posts, is perfectly describing one part of crossing the line between a good SNG player and an excellent SNG player...the ability to change one's mind, grow, and finally even fold KK preflop in the face of certain rare game conditions. I strongly suspect that part of the arsenal of many truly great SNG players would be the ability and will to fold AA if it was absolutely correct to do so...which would be in extremely rare game conditions that one probably would not encounter more than once or twice in a long SNG career.

[/ QUOTE ]

well isnt this just a humdinger

Never fold KK preflop, and it's not even close!

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

while your origianl statement remains arrogant and ignorant, your new statement that you won't change your thinking on something no matter what, might just trump it in both regards.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

I say I wouldn't fold KK pre-flop, and you go bonkers over it and start with the name calling.

Go figure.

[BeerNutts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you. I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Friend, you obviously haven't read "Harrington on Hold'em." In one of them he says (talking about pre-flop hands), "If I hear of someone telling an elaborate story about how he had a read on someone and he folded KK preflop, I instantly think, 'Idiot.'"

So, Harrington would actually disagree with YOU!

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you. I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Friend, you obviously haven't read "Harrington on Hold'em." In one of them he says (talking about pre-flop hands), "If I hear of someone telling an elaborate story about how he had a read on someone and he folded KK preflop, I instantly think, 'Idiot.'"

So, Harrington would actually disagree with YOU!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I read them them both in a week after they came out. But I'm 100% positive Sklansky says he's easily folded KK in his Tournament Holdem Book.

10+1 tourney people go all in with suited connectors for crying out loud!!! KK is a very strong hand, I cannot ever see laying it down pre-flop....QQ different story, still have a lot of cards that can beat you...But KK, you should not play the game if you are scared to play that hand...GL

[pergesu]

a. I don't know anyone who's ever considered folding kings preflop in an $11
b. We don't need a post to tell us that $11ers are donks

Quit shitting on my forum

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at the 55's, not the 200's, not the Step Highers,not the WSOP....hell I am not folding KK pre-flop even if the tourney buy-in happened to be my wife and kids.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I think Sklansky and Harrington would disagree with you. I was reading the Blog of the WSOP this year (as it was going on), and the most repeated bust was KK losing to AA.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Friend, you obviously haven't read "Harrington on Hold'em." In one of them he says (talking about pre-flop hands), "If I hear of someone telling an elaborate story about how he had a read on someone and he folded KK preflop, I instantly think, 'Idiot.'"

So, Harrington would actually disagree with YOU!

[/ QUOTE ]


Hi. That is correct, as far as it goes to folding KK based on a read of your opponent (in most cases). However, on the rare occasion when an excellent player might fold KK preflop, it would likely not be based on a read...but it could be based on the table conditions when it is time to act. The same, to a lesser chance, might apply to a great player and AA.

[Cassidy]

#Game No : 2870159102
***** Hand History for Game 2870159102 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:16506867 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, November 03, 12:35:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 35240 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 4: HERO ( $400 )
Seat 9: matsan1 ( $1345 )
Seat 1: zajax ( $1000 )
Seat 7: blackfeet2 ( $755 )
Seat 2: forzapalermo ( $795 )
Seat 5: Mercury21 ( $800 )
Seat 10: Vadim17 ( $760 )
Seat 3: tow21 ( $995 )
Seat 6: robs2611 ( $1150 )
Trny:16506867 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kc Kh ]
Mercury21 calls [15].
robs2611 folds.
blackfeet2 calls [15].
matsan1 folds.
Vadim17 folds.
zajax folds.
forzapalermo raises [125].
tow21 folds.
HERO calls [110].
Mercury21 raises [260].
blackfeet2 folds.
forzapalermo is all-In [670]
HERO is all-In [275]
Mercury21 calls [520].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 7s, 6s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Mercury21 shows [ As, Ah ] a pair of aces.
forzapalermo shows [ Ac, Ad ] a pair of aces.
HERO shows [ Kc, Kh ] a pair of kings.

This hand gave me a nice warm fuzzy feeling all over.