Bad third street call, compounding errors?

[nef]

I would appreciate any comments on 3rd, 6th, and the river.

$3/$6 stud, ante $0.50, 6 players
I am dealt (Ad7d) 2h and bring it in for $1.
XX 6h calls
XX 8h folds
XX Jd calls
XX Jc raises
XX 9d folds
I call.
6h calls.
Jd calls.

4th street:

(Ad 7d) 2h Ac check
XX 6h Th check
XX Jd 8c check
XX Jc 2s bet

I check-raise, 6h Th folds, Jd 8c calls, Jc 2s calls.

5th street:

(Ad 7d) 2h Ac Qc bet / call
XX Jd 8c 4d raise
XX Jc 2s 8d Fold

6th street:
(Ad 7d) 2h Ac Qc 5c check
XX Jd 8c 4d 3h check

On the river I have unimproved Aces and am first to act. I check.

On third street, my call with the slightly dead two-flush and one overcard is poor poker IMHO. How much better is this call with the 5d or Kd instead of the 7d? and if all d's are live?

I like my fourth street check raise.

I am ok with my fifth street play.

I clearly got outplayed by a free card raise here on fifth/sixth street. How often would you bet sixth street here? I did not think this player would cold call on fourth with only a three flush and I fully expected to be bet into on 6th by a likely two pair/trips(though his cards were somewhat dead). After the 5th street raise and 6th street check I was fairly certain I was against a flush(straight?) draw. This read is what lead me to my river check. I didn't want to bet into a made flush or a busted draw. I felt he would bluff often enough with a busted draw for my river call to be profitable. I also felt he would sometimes check two pair fearing Aces up, saving me a bet. If I bet the river this player would likely call with just a pair or even two pair on the river, and raise only with a flush or straight. I could safely fold to a raise. I think it is close between a bet and a check. What do you think?

I would appreciate any comments on 3rd, 6th, and the river.

[34TheTruth34]

bad call on 3rd street, but you made up for it with an excellent play on 4th. Your opponents raise on 5th street seems like a pair + four-flush and it was designed to get the other player out. After the check-check on 6th, I check-call the river regardless of what I catch. Well played from 4th street and beyond, but just realize that calling a raise with an ace in the hole, two low cards and a 3-flush is a long-run losing play...

[34TheTruth34]

I meant to explain why I said check-call the river regardless of what you catch. That is because there is really no money to be made here. If you bet, he really can't call with a worse hand (assuming you don't improve your aces). He will fold a lot of hands that you beat that he might bet if you checked, such as one pair or a busted straight of flush. And, of course, he will raise if he made his straight or flush.

And since he will most likely bet any two pair on the end, I would also choose to check-call even if I made aces up or trip aces.

So check-calling saves money when he makes a big hand and raises you and also allows him to try to bluff you out of the pot. If your hand is good, there is almost no way you can make money on the river by betting.

[patrick dicaprio]

you are right that this is a bad call. usually i think people play too tightly on third and this is one of the few times where i think someone is too loose on third. but you should note that it is a raised pot and you are next to act after the raise and one folder. i wouldnt call with any of the hands you mention. in an unraised pot i would play with the Kd.

on fourth street you say you like your checkraise. why? i am curious as to your thoughts. i think you should bet here.

fifth OK. sixth i would bet here and bet the river. i think it is a common error to check a hand like yours into a raiser. if he bets you have to call so you shoudl bet. if you thought he has a draw then it is a tremendous error to check. also by betting here you also allow yourself to possibly bluff on the river if you dont improve since he will likely think you picked up two pair so that if he has two pair and not a draw you may still win.

on the river you say you would not want to bet into a busted draw. why?? if he has a pair he will likely call here. if he doesnt he wont call but wont bet either. so you gain nothing by checking if he has a busted draw, but lose something if you check and he would have called with a pair.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

after reading your post i think i might be wrong about the river since you could get raised. but i am not certain that it is wrong to bet. why do you think that he would bet a hand worse than aces such as a pair or a busted draw. given the way the hand was played witha checkraise from a player who catches an Ace i wouldnt bet a hand that couldnt beat aces here if it was checked. there is virtually no chance that you could bluff here if you had a busted draw.

if you had trip aces why would you check call? even if i put him on a draw i would checkraise and hope he calls with two pair. if he has a draw then i would pay him off.

pat

[Gitz]

nef,

(Ad7d) 2h. Never play this hand to a raise even though you were the bring in. Make that the 2d and I would play to a raise anytime in a multiway hand. Your Ad is the only overcard on the board except the 6h so there is basically one card you can catch that would really help and that's the Ad and you already have it. The Ac helps but the game your playing is catchup which is fine when you have a three flush, straight, high overcards or cards that work together but you have a large spread A72. You can win with these hands like any hand but over time you will lose.

Paul

[Andy B]

As you and everyone else have pointed out, the third-street call was poor. The check-raise on fourth was very good. Giving a free card on sixth street is only a disaster if the other guy would have folded to a bet. For this guy to fold to a sixth-street bet given the action to this point would be pretty astounding. Checking on the river is fine, as you give opponent a chance to bluff. Betting in the hopes that he will call with unimproved Jacks would have been OK too. Who knows, he might fold two small pair (pretty unlikely, though).

I'm not saying your opponent wasn't on a flush draw, but when a guy calls two bets cold on fourth street after catching an off-suit card, a flush draw is not the first thing I put him on.

[patrick dicaprio]

sounds like you and I would have played it the same way! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Pat

[nef]

thanks everyone for the comments!

[34TheTruth34]

why do you think that he would bet a hand worse than aces such as a pair or a busted draw. given the way the hand was played witha checkraise from a player who catches an Ace i wouldnt bet a hand that couldnt beat aces here if it was checked

I think there's very little value to a river bet. What I mean by that is that if he calls your bet, there's almost no way you can have a winner. Furthermore, when he hits his hand (if in fact he was drawing to a straight or flush), you will get raised, and you really can't call. If he has just one pair or a busted straight or flush, he's not calling.

It's not that I think he'd necessarily bet a busted flush or one pair, but it's definitely a possiblity. If he thinks you won't call with only one pair, then he might definitely try it. I say give him a chance to try to buy it and then call him down.

Now if you make aces up, the situation becomes slightly harder. This is because he may have raised with two pair. However, I think he would still bet the river if you checked (especially since you checked 6th and 7th street) and the money goes in anyway without the risk of being raised.

So the way I see it, the only way you lose out is if he was drawing at a straight or flush, missed it and made one pair, and would have called a bet on the river but not bet himself. To me, that seems like quite a longshot.