Weak ace in the blind

[stokken]

Middle stages of tourney

Mp is a good player, agressive and fearless it seems, I have encountered him on more the one occasion and he is quite capable of making ones decissions though. Lp I know little of.

Blinds 200/400

Mp raises 3xbb, lp calls, sb folds, I hold A /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and complete.

Mp stack is 19K, lp stack is 9K I got 17K

Flopp A /images/graemlins/heart.gif,9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, Oop bets 2000, lp folds, I raise to 4000

Oop goes all in. I ?

Raise to small? Do you find it more sucsefull to lead on this flopp?Would you think c/r is the best play? Or do you favour c/call then bet? Line help please. Would you fold this hand pf when you know it is hard to outplay your opponent? Mp is creative, his range could be fairly large, He could have A-x s( then it is not a flush draw, but perhaps decent kicker or two paired), A-K-T, PP-any, suited connectors, I am lost with this guy.

Do you call with this weak A?

Second question, when a blind c/r on an A flopp, how liberated are you with regards to moves?

I`ll post mp`s hand if I get some discussion going

[locutus2002]

There are only a handful of decent flush draws with the ace on the flop, whereas there are many hands with an ace to raise from MP.

He's betting into two other players ATF, and he's willing to show you his stack. I think you are behind, and I'd let it go.

[DDBeast]

It's a terrible call pf for this reason, you're screwed on the flop. You have to fold to the push.

[betgo]

Fold preflop. Check/fold the flop.

I would rather call preflop with 74o or something. Atleast when you hit, you have less chance of being dominated. A3s is a much stronger hand than A3o, but is still probably not worth a call.

People play aces (some even call raises with A3o). Why do you doubt the flop bettor has one?

[People_Mover]

If you're gonna call preflop, I lead the flop and fold to a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're gonna call preflop, I lead the flop and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I don't like check/folding this flop.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
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If you're gonna call preflop, I lead the flop and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I don't like check/folding this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why throw good money after bad. That's why calling preflop is so terrible.

Pretty likely you are way behind an ace or slightly ahead of a flush draw.

Some people can't fold what might be a winning hand. That's why they call with A3o is the first place.

[rockythecat99]

Fold preflop. Why are you even calling this?? Weak ace out of position. 3 handed? wtf?

[stokken]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people can't fold what might be a winning hand. That's why they call with A3o is the first place.



[/ QUOTE ] The reason I called was that I hadnt played a hand in somewhile, and thought I might get credit for a better hand( the cards in your hole isnt always what matters betgo). I carefully choose( or at least I try to) the moments I play less then premium or prosperous hands, I thought this was an opportunity at a decent price.
If one sets the combined range one might be up against when your opponent is creative and one limper as something like this:AA-44, AKs-A9s, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AKo-A9o, KQo, QJo, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o you are only 40/60 dog pf.
Against that same range I am 68 favourite after flopp.

Basically it comes down to if I want to credit him with an A or not. An if he is gutsy enough to read my raise and none raise pf as a weak A, making a bid I will have a though time calling.

Slightly offended by the little hidden dissing

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some people can't fold what might be a winning hand. That's why they call with A3o is the first place.



[/ QUOTE ] The reason I called was that I hadnt played a hand in somewhile, and thought I might get credit for a better hand( the cards in your hole isnt always what matters betgo). I carefully choose( or at least I try to) the moments I play less then premium or prosperous hands, I thought this was an opportunity at a decent price.
If one sets the combined range one might be up against when your opponent is creative and one limper as something like this:AA-44, AKs-A9s, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AKo-A9o, KQo, QJo, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o you are only 40/60 dog pf.
Against that same range I am 68 favourite after flopp.

Basically it comes down to if I want to credit him with an A or not. An if he is gutsy enough to read my raise and none raise pf as a weak A, making a bid I will have a though time calling.

Slightly offended by the little hidden dissing

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are looking to steal, call from the button or CO. You are out of position.

I don't care what % dig you are preflop. A3o is one of the worse possible hands to call a raise with. About the only decent hand you can make is aces up. If an ace or 3 hits, are you going to play it aggressively? That's right. I guess you did.

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some people can't fold what might be a winning hand. That's why they call with A3o is the first place.



[/ QUOTE ] The reason I called was that I hadnt played a hand in somewhile, and thought I might get credit for a better hand( the cards in your hole isnt always what matters betgo). I carefully choose( or at least I try to) the moments I play less then premium or prosperous hands, I thought this was an opportunity at a decent price.
If one sets the combined range one might be up against when your opponent is creative and one limper as something like this:AA-44, AKs-A9s, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AKo-A9o, KQo, QJo, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o you are only 40/60 dog pf.
Against that same range I am 68 favourite after flopp.

Basically it comes down to if I want to credit him with an A or not. An if he is gutsy enough to read my raise and none raise pf as a weak A, making a bid I will have a though time calling.

Slightly offended by the little hidden dissing

[/ QUOTE ]
So whta that you haven't played a hand in a while??? So there is a raise, a call and a you call trying to represent what??? I don't get it. This is a bad play and I am not dissing you. With your image you can either resteal from lp raise in the blinds or you can steal the blinds feeling confident that you will take them down a big percentage of the time. Calling out of position with a very weak hand 3 handed is just chip spewing.

[TBone]

The problem you have in your justification is that you're ignoring the gap concept and you could lose a lot more money when you're up against another Ace than the money you win when either player has an Ace.

Gap concept means that to call a raise you need to have a better hand than the initial raiser may have had to have to make the initial raise. (not that all players follow this concept, but you should!) So the cold caller in this case _should_ have a better hand than a typical raising hand for this position preflop. That would indicate that he more likely has Ace high or a mid - high pocket pair.

You may be a 68% favorite over that range of hands if you're up against one player, and I personally think that range of hands is far too big. You're not taking into account the percentage of times people would have the individual hands in the range you specify. They're going to have AJ+, maybe KQ, high (AA - JJ) to medium (TT, 99, 88) pocket pairs more often than they will 77 - 44, JTo - 87o, etc. There are also more combinations of non-pocket pairs than there are pairs, so this would indicate that it's even more likely that at least one of you opponents has A-high or KQ as opposed to KK or JJ or something. You're also not a 68% favorite over two players that would have cards in that range of hands.

When an Ace comes on the flop and your opponents don't have an Ace, you're probably going to get checked to or get a continuation bet, raise, and everyone folds unless they're drawing. If an Ace comes on the flop and your opponents do have an Ace and you raise or call them down, you're going to lose significantly more chips than you'll gain when they don't have the Ace. (not all the time mind you and occasionally you'll spike a second pair as well, but the percentage of times that this occurs is small) Hence, this type of play is -chip EV.

In a tournament, where you can spend hours trying to build a stack and accumulate chips, making this kind of play can effectively cripple you from going far. Trust me, I've played tournaments for hours, only to get sucked out on or make a boneheaded move taking a bluff too far at the bubble. Then, I've had to fight for my life just to make the money. And once you're short stacked you're in big trouble.

I'd recommend you read Sklansky's Tournament Poker book and Harrington on Hold Em 1 to learn about some of these concepts as it appears you're not familiar with them.

T

[stokken]

I am quite familiar with the books you mention, and then add some. I have played alot of tournaments too. To make it good though sometimes you have to make more then the cards work for you. The player in question is a skilled player which I thought able to raise from mp with a wide range,to outplay opponents on flopp, the limper I knew little of, but thought him weak. I aggree with your reasoning for general play and when reads are absent. It was interesting to me what people think when it comes to heart and moves. Not general discussion of what hands to play in what pos against what bid. I thought villains play was great, It looks as he reads me for a flush draw and charges the most for it, or that he represents a good kicker or set. I rarely play this bad a hand after raisers, but on occasion, I thought I could make him fold to a c/r on a flopp with A,K,Q, at least it was worth a try. I couldnt get my self to call, lost heart-but I should have thought the all in bet suspicious -would you go all in with TPGK? He showed TT when I folded, because we have encountered eachother a few times and have a good tone.Also it was a message not to mess with him.

What do you think of his move?

[TBone]

I think the guy has stones to make that kind of move. He also apparently reads you well.

I think your read of him in this scenario is fine, but calling w/ A3o when you have someone else (who you admit you have no read other than you think he's probably weak) who has cold called his raise makes me think that more often than not you're going to be losing money in the long run--even when you spike an ace. If it was just him in the hand and you have a solid read on him, I'd be much more apt to make this kind of call.

T

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I am quite familiar with the books you mention, and then add some. I have played alot of tournaments too. To make it good though sometimes you have to make more then the cards work for you. The player in question is a skilled player which I thought able to raise from mp with a wide range,to outplay opponents on flopp, the limper I knew little of, but thought him weak. I aggree with your reasoning for general play and when reads are absent. It was interesting to me what people think when it comes to heart and moves. Not general discussion of what hands to play in what pos against what bid. I thought villains play was great, It looks as he reads me for a flush draw and charges the most for it, or that he represents a good kicker or set. I rarely play this bad a hand after raisers, but on occasion, I thought I could make him fold to a c/r on a flopp with A,K,Q, at least it was worth a try. I couldnt get my self to call, lost heart-but I should have thought the all in bet suspicious -would you go all in with TPGK? He showed TT when I folded, because we have encountered eachother a few times and have a good tone.Also it was a message not to mess with him.

What do you think of his move?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is easy to get bluffed out when you play TPNK aggressively out of position. That's why you don't play A3o.

Did you read Brunson in <u>Super System</u> about how bad AQ is and how AJ is a trouble hand. What does that make A3o?

This is a good example of why A3o is such a trash hand even if it is a better than average hand against a random hand allin preflop. You had the best hand and you lost. That has a lot to do with the weakness of your starting hand and position.

[locutus2002]

I like the PF call. Hero is getting 7.5XBB:2XBB ~3:1 to make the call and only has to be 21% in the hand. Hero is easily much higher than this against a LAG and an unknown. The hand is particularly good because its 3-ways and villain is generally less likely to bet with air against 2 other players. Specific reads are helpful.

I'd check after the flop, and might consider continuing in the hand since you should easily be able to represent the flush if another heart comes.

PF fold is EV- by definition (since calling is EV+).

Given your image a pf raise might be strong.

74s is much worse than a3o, although the chance of domination is lower, so hero needs to proceed more carefully with his a3.

GAP is a guideline.

Flame on fellow donkeys!

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the PF call. Hero is getting 7.5XBB:2XBB ~3:1 to make the call and only has to be 21% in the hand. Hero is easily much higher than this against a LAG and an unknown. The hand is particularly good because its 3-ways and villain is generally less likely to bet with air against 2 other players. Specific reads are helpful.

I'd check after the flop, and might consider continuing in the hand since you should easily be able to represent the flush if another heart comes.

PF fold is EV- by definition (since calling is EV+).

Given your image a pf raise might be strong.

74s is much worse than a3o, although the chance of domination is lower, so hero needs to proceed more carefully with his a3.

GAP is a guideline.

Flame on fellow donkeys!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not going to argue any more with people who think A3o is a good hand to call a raise with.