Micro cross-post: KK on unfriendly flop

[Redd]

So this hand was originally posted in microlimits, but the discussion was focused on a different, later part of the hand. I thought the flop was interesting though, so I'd like to take it to the small stakes court of appeal. Villains are all too loose and too passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero...

Bet. You might be ahead, and if you are behind to an ace, you have a gutshot, a backdoor flush draw, and two outs to your set.

[soko]

You have a gutshot draw to the nuts and a backdoor flush draw to the second nuts so you have odds to call a bet, but you might even have the best hand here so you should bet.

[Redd]

Do you keep up the turn aggression UI if called in multiple spots?

My big problem with these type of hands is that I typically bet, get called, tell myself there's plenty of draws they could have, and beat my brains out against an ace until showdown. While we often have the best hand, it seems the times that we don't get quite expensive.

Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY. KQ is not as likely since you hold 2 kings, and there was no 3 bet so a set is also unlikely.

I bet/call 1 raise. maybe call a 3-bet depending. You likley have the best hand and it would be terrible to have it checked through. I don't think you can protect against LP's but you still need to bet this flop.

[krimson]

I bet the flop. Villians are passive so they're not going to bet worse hands if we c/c here, so we're only putting in bets when behind and not when ahead. I think they call with gutshots, flush draws, any j any t.

Unfortunately they also call with Ax. So, that is probably the last place I bet (assuming u/i), hopefully we trim the field down a bit and can showdown cheaply from there.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you keep up the turn aggression UI if called in multiple spots?

My big problem with these type of hands is that I typically bet, get called, tell myself there's plenty of draws they could have, and beat my brains out against an ace until showdown. While we often have the best hand, it seems the times that we don't get quite expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your KK was a MONSTER before the flop, now it's a very marginal hand, you're betting hoping to win, you're not going to make anyone fold who has a better hand than you and can usually lay down to alot of action. You bet on the flop to see if you can get a cheap turn card, if you check and call, you gain no information, if you bet and get raised, you're probally behind. any money you invest after the flop is going to show a small return in equity, right now you are fighting for your share of the money that's already in there.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY. KQ is not as likely since you hold 2 kings, and there was no 3 bet so a set is also unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does having KK eliminate the possibility of KQ from your hand read? There is still 2 kings and 4 queens leaving 8 combinations of KQ possible.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY. KQ is not as likely since you hold 2 kings, and there was no 3 bet so a set is also unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does having KK eliminate the possibility of KQ from your hand read? There is still 2 kings and 4 queens leaving 8 combinations of KQ possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ is not as likely

[ QUOTE ]
Do you keep up the turn aggression UI if called in multiple spots?

My big problem with these type of hands is that I typically bet, get called, tell myself there's plenty of draws they could have, and beat my brains out against an ace until showdown. While we often have the best hand, it seems the times that we don't get quite expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time NOT betting the turn on a board like this if you are only called on the flop because there are so many hands that could be calling you that you have beat. It really is a tough spot, but I think I would bet the turn if like 2 come along, then check/call the river and pray for a bluff on a missed draw. Although this river play depends on reads too.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you keep up the turn aggression UI if called in multiple spots?

My big problem with these type of hands is that I typically bet, get called, tell myself there's plenty of draws they could have, and beat my brains out against an ace until showdown. While we often have the best hand, it seems the times that we don't get quite expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time NOT betting the turn on a board like this if you are only called on the flop because there are so many hands that could be calling you that you have beat. It really is a tough spot, but I think I would bet the turn if like 2 come along, then check/call the river and pray for a bluff on a missed draw. Although this river play depends on reads too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice isn't very helpful without knowing exactly what card comes on the turn. The board is 2 suited, 9 puts 4 to a straight, a pair could give any broadway holding trips.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
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Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY. KQ is not as likely since you hold 2 kings, and there was no 3 bet so a set is also unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does having KK eliminate the possibility of KQ from your hand read? There is still 2 kings and 4 queens leaving 8 combinations of KQ possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ is not as likely

[/ QUOTE ]
Read his first sentence.

Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY.

So we don't get raised by KQ, Ax, ever?

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY. KQ is not as likely since you hold 2 kings, and there was no 3 bet so a set is also unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does having KK eliminate the possibility of KQ from your hand read? There is still 2 kings and 4 queens leaving 8 combinations of KQ possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ is not as likely

[/ QUOTE ]
Read his first sentence.

Also if you get RAISED on this flop, you can pretty much put your opponent on two pair ONLY.

So we don't get raised by KQ, Ax, ever?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, yeah I didnt reread the first sentence. "ever" is definately incorrect, but if you get raised you are definatly behind at the very LEAST 2 pair.

[mowz]

Against loose passive opponents, UTG, MP3, and CO could be calling with any number of ace littles that mean your simply up against a higher pair. I dont see how we can assume a raise means two pair. In any case I would bet/fold the flop and bet/fold the turn if an innocent card came, followed by a check/call river depending on how the river betting went.

[W. Deranged]

Bet the flop. Call one raise but not two. Check-fold turn unimproved if raised on flop.

If no flop raise, I'm comfortable checking the turn in the majority of situations. Seems like a pretty clear "check the turn" with outs situation, though a lot is going to depend on the number of players left, field size, etc. It's quite possible if we bet and get raised we'd have to call, which is frustrating. Since we're not vulnerable to overcards, and we have two Ks in our hands to block that gutshot, checking the turn and allowing a free card is really not bad at all for us. Often when that happens we'll be pleased because we are drawing.