I cost myself this hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

DRD66

11-03-2005, 12:36 PM

and didn't realize it until checking some hands in PT.
I think this is a leak, but don't know how big. I'd like opinions on possible holding for villian (and how likely), and where I screwed up.

Only seen villian play a few hands, not done anything terrible yet. Assume typical for the site/stakes.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Goodnews

11-03-2005, 12:45 PM

Lead the turn.

3-bet the river.

I put the Villain on AxT, AA, QQ, JJ, AK. Many people call the flop bet with 2nd pair to see if they can hit two pair. Villain definitely not put you on flush because the flop bet is deceptive.

Definitely lead the turn though, it gains you valuable information (ie slow play flop and raise turn w. top pair etc.), I say this because you will go to showdown with your flush.

Only leak in this play is the turn.

Swax

11-03-2005, 12:56 PM

Don't know about the coldcall PF with six already folding.

I agree with Goodnews - I think you have to lead the turn here. However, if villain filled up on the river, I can't imagine that you would have won the hand by doing so. Am I missing something?

numeri

11-03-2005, 01:00 PM

I don't know if I call this preflop. I'd like another cold-caller between. As you played it, lead the turn. Why in the world do you check/raise when you just bet the flop? Having the turn check through would be a travesty.

Don't worry about why you lost. Ask yourself this: Are you folding at any point? Is MP3 folding? Since both of the answers are no, there is nothing you could do to win the hand. You did, however, play it poorly.

bozlax

11-03-2005, 01:00 PM

Flop: Since there was a PFR, I probably don't lead out this flop. Check-call; you're behind most of a reasonable pfr's hand-range, you've only got 2 opps so you lose your value if you lose UTG+2, the PFR is likely to bet it for you, and you're not really afraid of giving a free card.

Turn: Open-bet. You've made your hand, but it's vulnerable, and you want to get money in while you likely have the best hand.

River: I play it the same when the board pairs. If Villan had KK, 55 or the case T with a paired kicker, there's nothing you can do about it.

Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?

Obliky

11-03-2005, 01:03 PM

I think i prefer c/r the flop and leading the turn, you have a moderate made hand and a good draw to a probable best hand.

Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, i think by checking the turn you allow MP3 to take a free card..he has shown no strength post-flop so far and there is no reason to think he wont just check behind. So if your going to donk the flop i would suggest leading the turn too.

I think the river is ok.

@bsolute_luck

11-03-2005, 01:04 PM

i would have lost a lot more on this hand. if he has a set of kings, he let you off cheap and there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

numeri

11-03-2005, 01:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think i prefer c/r the flop and leading the turn, you have a moderate made hand and a good draw to a probable best hand.

Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
C/R the flop drives UTG+2 out. Leading out is much better.

EDIT: Hey sweet, I have 1000 posts! Damn, I spend way too much time here. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

deception5

11-03-2005, 01:09 PM

I like preflop and flop. I'd go ahead and lead the turn as well, makes it look more like you have a king than a flush and may give you a chance to 3-bet.

11-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Flop: I might let the pfr bet, I think he will almost always. I would call and hope to get the straggler along.

(as played) After villian just calls the flop, I'd bet out on the turn & 3-bet.

It's hard to put villian on a hand given the go&stop action that he employs on the turn. Given the call on the turn, you seem to be ahead ( I don't think he has flush, KK or TT). I'm not giving him credit for a 55 or 88 due to the preflop raise. So I 3-bet the river given the chance. He probably has AT.

bottomset

11-03-2005, 01:14 PM

if he has KK, KT, TT, 55 basically he'll never fold and there isn't anything you can do to change that

if he had one of the above hands he let you off easy

DRD66

11-03-2005, 01:15 PM

You know, the CC looked weird to me, so I checked the HH again. This was my 2nd hand at the table, and the first hand I rivered a 1-card flush to beat villian's 2-pr (getting proper odds all the way). I must've figured his raise to be "playing catch up" and made a loose pf call.

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

gharp

11-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Seems to be a lot of different opinions on this hand. I'll put in my votes for:

- I'm folding this preflop -- you're out of position at a full table where you're going to have 4 players total at best. Stick a cold-caller or two in there and I'll probably come along.
- Check-raise or check-call the flop, don't lead out. I think your decision here depends on whether you consider the pot big on the flop. If you do, then check-raise. If not, then check-call. (I'd check-call)
- Without a read that he's aggressive enough to bet, I'd probably just bet the turn. A lot of players freeze up when they see that third flush card. You're play on the flop would influence this too (ie, if you check-raised you should be more likely to lead out).
- River's fine.

Swax

11-03-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right - villain's play definitely indicates that he may have been trying to bait you with a flopped 2 pair or set, but even so, how do you think it would have played out if you led the turn? Since there's almost no way he's folding a set, I'm assuming that perhaps he had 2-pair, KT or something, and you're thinking that if the turn action went bet/raise/3-bet that villain might lay KT down? I suppose that's possible but I doubt it. Not at .5/1 especially.

Obliky

11-03-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think i prefer c/r the flop and leading the turn, you have a moderate made hand and a good draw to a probable best hand.

Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
C/R the flop drives UTG+2 out. Leading out is much better.

EDIT: Hey sweet, I have 1000 posts! Damn, I spend way too much time here. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats on the 1000 posts /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Could you explain a bit more why a c/r isnt a good idea.. i would be checkraising here to get UTG+2 to fold, and also to represent strength to MP3 who may or may not have us beaten.
Whilst its unlikely UTG+2 would fold a hand that already has us beat (though he may fold something like QT which would be nice..or maybe even K2 and the like) he is likely to fold overcard/s to our split Ts.

I keep looking back at the flop and all i see is 'Checkraise!'.

deception5

11-03-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, the CC looked weird to me, so I checked the HH again. This was my 2nd hand at the table, and the first hand I rivered a 1-card flush to beat villian's 2-pr (getting proper odds all the way). I must've figured his raise to be "playing catch up" and made a loose pf call.

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian didn't fold to a c/r there's no way he's folding to a bet.

bozlax

11-03-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The only way you're trapping UTG+2 for any bets is by betting, having him call and having the PFR raise. Check-raising faces him with 2 cold, it doesn't trap him for 2.

Obliky

11-03-2005, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The only way you're trapping UTG+2 for any bets is by betting, having him call and having the PFR raise. Check-raising faces him with 2 cold, it doesn't trap him for 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold. It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

bozlax

11-03-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I've thought about it. Since it's obvious you lost here to a full house, Villan either had two-pair or a set on the turn. If you bet out, he's at least calling, and he might raise-call. He's not ever, never, no-way-no-how, not-in-a-million-years-probably-even-if-he-knew-you-had-a-made-flush folding to one bet (especially given the added information that you'd rivered him on the previous hand...he's pissed). What's more, if he has a set he's correct to not fold since he has ten outs to a boat. (I suppose it's possible you lost to the ace-high flush, but then it's even less likely that you're going to fold him on the turn.)

Let it go. You played fine.

DRD66

11-03-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
thinking that if the turn action went bet/raise/3-bet that villain might lay KT down? I suppose that's possible but I doubt it. Not at .5/1 especially.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If villian didn't fold to a c/r there's no way he's folding to a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree he's not folding, but do think I should have lead the turn. I replayed the hand in PT with the pot odds window on (been finding that helpful lately). If I had bet into the turn, he'd need 8 outs to call. This makes a set an iffy call, and calling with 2pr -EV. By my c/r-ing the turn, he needed only 6 outs to call, which he did correctly. He showed K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif for the boat. Doubt he would have folded to a turn bet, but by c/r-ing I gave him proper odds to suck out on me.

This is why I'm not sure how big a leak this is. I think I need work on late play (WSD,W$SD, AG numbers kinda weird). And I seem to lose a lot of rivers, but everyone feels that way. Comments on finding and fixing late game leaks appreciated.

tiltaholic

11-03-2005, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and didn't realize it until checking some hands in PT.
I think this is a leak, but don't know how big. I'd like opinions on possible holding for villian (and how likely), and where I screwed up.

Only seen villian play a few hands, not done anything terrible yet. Assume typical for the site/stakes.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

you are too results oriented.

lead the turn, try to 3-bet.

Koss

11-03-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold. It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a pair + flush draw. It will improve to 2 pair or better half the time. Our equity could be as high as 50% right now so getting the most money in as possible is the way to go. The only hands we really want to "protect" against are hands that have us dominated. The check/raise is only a good idea if UTG+2 has something like AT or KJ. I'm willing to take my chances and try to keep him in the pot.

DRD66

11-03-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you are too results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented". This hand bugged me 'cause I lost it. I was looking through PT at big pots from that session and found this hand. The results compelled me to look at it again. And helped me find the mistake I mentioned above.

Let me clear something up: I didn't post this hand because I lost it. In fact, I doubt there was any way to win it, as many have noted. I posted it because I played it badly, and I don't like to play badly. Mistakes cost money.

[ QUOTE ]
Comments on finding and fixing late game leaks appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

bozlax

11-03-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by trap you mean "push out." Got it! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you protecting, here, against a PFR? You've got MPWK on a board where even AQ is going to have odds to peel.

McGahee

11-03-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and didn't realize it until checking some hands in PT.
I think this is a leak, but don't know how big. I'd like opinions on possible holding for villian (and how likely), and where I screwed up.

Only seen villian play a few hands, not done anything terrible yet. Assume typical for the site/stakes.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where you cost yourself the hand. I'd say the biggest screwup was PF. You'd like at least 1 more limper.
Flop is fine.
Turn shouldn't be standard, but might be ok with a read.
River is ok given turn action.
Looks like villian was waiting to raise the turn w/ top 2 but got scared of your C/R and filled up on the river.

deception5

11-03-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree he's not folding, but do think I should have lead the turn. I replayed the hand in PT with the pot odds window on (been finding that helpful lately). If I had bet into the turn, he'd need 8 outs to call. This makes a set an iffy call

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, but only if he knows he's beaten. Because poker is a game of incomplete information, when you lead the flop and turn into him when he has 2-pair or a set, there is a very good chance that he still has the best hand against your range of hands.

Your opponent should not think "my opponent has a flush now so I should go ahead and fold my 2-pair or set" (this would be a huge mistake on his part) but rather something like:

[ QUOTE ]
it's possible my opponent has a flush, but also possible he's value betting a pair, an overpair, 2-pair, or a set here. He may also have a pair which just improved to a pair+flush draw like A /images/graemlins/club.gifTx or a pocket pair with one /images/graemlins/club.gif. He may even be bet/folding a hand like ATo which was tptk on the flop but now may be behind Kx or a flush. Either way there's no way I can lay this down yet and most likely I'm going to need to take this to showdown heads up because my hand is just too strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

deception5

11-03-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are too results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented". This hand bugged me 'cause I lost it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say I have AA preflop. I raise, the BB a loose-passive player calls. Flop is K83 rainbow. I bet he calls. Turn is a 7. I bet he calls. River is a 2. I bet he calls. He flops over KK and takes down the pot.

Saying I should have check/folded the turn or river is incredibly results-oriented as regardless of the outcome I'm giving up way too much value against the range of hands my opponent could have had here.

Whether I win or lose this hand there's no way to say I played it wrong and this is a perfect example of why the results of the actual hand in question don't matter. One time I lose to KK, the next 5 times this situation occurs he calls me down with a pocket pair, 8x, etc and I make it all back and then some.

Obliky

11-03-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by trap you mean "push out." Got it! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes i used the wrong terminology and apologise profusely from the bottom of my wrong terminology using heart /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

What are you protecting, here, against a PFR? You've got MPWK on a board where even AQ is going to have odds to peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that protecting against the PFR isnt going to happen..my point was that by check-raising we push-out UTG+2 and any overcards he may have. However, seeing as the pot is resonably small and we have a pretty strong hand i admit it seems like a better idea to just bet out.

tiltaholic

11-03-2005, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented".

[/ QUOTE ]

it is a bad thing for learning how to play better poker.
in fact, it might be the worst thing.
learning to not be results-oriented is probably the hardest thing to do in poker.

the reason is because many times one can play perfectly in a hand and lose. often times, the correct course of action in a hand is to call a bet or call a raise when we know we are going to lose 90% of the time. poker is hard, in part, because it is so hard for people to dissociate "correct play" from "plays where we ended up losing a particular hand".

the flip side of this can also work to our advantage. people who play incorrectly can win, sometimes a lot of money, and they'll continue to play 'their-way' -- thereby making the games profitable.

looking at a hand from the point of view of "what could i have done to win this particular hand" is an incorrect thought process oftentimes and should be avoided. in this case, the correct course of action was to bet the turn (as you know), but not because it would have helped you win the hand (as you know).

try reviewing hands in which you won a lot of money as well as the ones where you lost. often that is where i find my most glaring errors.

all of this is not to say that losing $ doesn't suck...

bozlax

11-03-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that protecting against the PFR isnt going to happen..my point was that by check-raising we push-out UTG+2 and any overcards he may have. However, seeing as the pot is resonably small and we have a pretty strong hand i admit it seems like a better idea to just bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...especially since you're unlikely to win the hand if you don't improve, probably to a flush, you want UTG+2 to stay in and pad the pot for when you hit. Your only concern is that he's drawing to a better flush, but if he is you're not pushing him out anyway.

Augster

11-04-2005, 12:22 AM

Haven't read anything else...Probably already been said.

Preflop I'm only calling if I'm pretty sure the BB is coming along. UTG+2 is calling for sure. 4 to the flop sounds nice. It's not a horrible error I would guess knowing it's going to be 3-handed.

Flop: I like the bet, though a C/C wouldn't be all bad either, thus keeping UTG+2 in the pot to pad our draw. I can't believe UTG+2 folded to 1 bet, but probably didn't want to get sandwiched.

TURN: Bet out. I would C/R if I had C/C'd the flop. I bet/3-bet here.

River: Looks good. What else can you do when the board pairs broadway on the river, AND you don't have the nut flush?

I don't see how you "lost" this hand. With the range of hands you "lose" to on this board, I'd say MP3 played it horribly and let you out quite cheap. I suppose if he had a set or 2-pair on the flop he was waiting until the turn to pop you. But with trips or 2-pair on the flop, and UTG+2 dropping out, he should really be raising I'd think.

You played it okay. I would say your flush getting beat by a full house isn't a BIG leak. If you 3-bet the river and called a cap, then yeah, that I think'd be spew, but nothing in this hand tells me it could have turned out any other way except for maybe a pre-flop fold.

bozlax

11-04-2005, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I replayed the hand in PT with the pot odds window on (been finding that helpful lately). If I had bet into the turn, he'd need 8 outs to call. This makes a set an iffy call, and calling with 2pr -EV. By my c/r-ing the turn, he needed only 6 outs to call, which he did correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the kind of conclusion you draw from replaying hands in PT, stop doing that. Villan only had four outs if he was behind you (actually, three, but he wouldn't know you were holding a T); whether you bet into him or c/r'd him he was calling you to the river, and he'd be right to because he thought he was ahead, and nothing you could do would change that. I'd have done the same thing with a flopped two-pair.

ajm36

11-04-2005, 01:38 AM

I'm sure no one will agree with this. I might have called this depending on the table. The flop bet looks good. I lead the turn--he may have a backdoor flush draw (A or Q)and I don't want to give him a free card. I cap the river. Nine times out of ten (who knows if this is accurate) pairing the board will NOT cause you to lose this hand. What else are you afraid of? A higher Flush? Not likely. I think you missed a river bet.