Give up or stab at the flop/turn???? My dilemma with LIMIT holdem

[Indiana]

Many thanks in advance for viewing this thread. Im a NL player and I've heard many say that NL is harder than Limit, but I think it just depends on the situation. One situation I've really struggled with is what to do with an "Anna Kournakova" type of hand after raising before the flop. Do I need to continue or slow down??? Here are two examples. What would you do for each hand?
Hand #1:

10/20 game at the Bellagio. I raise it up with AK spades in MP behind two early limpers. The button and the two limpers come along. The pots got $95 in it and four players. The flop comes down J 8 4 all diamonds and its checked to me. What do I do?

Hand #2:
Another 10/20 game, Indiana riverboat. Again two players limp in EP and this time I raise it up in EP with AJ spades. The CO seat and two limpers call. Again there is $95 in the pot and 4 players. Flop comes down Kh 8s 4c for a nice rainbow. Its checked to me, what do I do?

Just not sure how to proceed in limit with this many players in with me.

Thanks again in advance,

Indy

[La Brujita]

Check both hands.

I dont reccomend raising PF and not betting when checked to. Are you afraid that you'll get check-raised? Well, if you bet and get check-raised from EP, I'd release these hands. Otherwise, I would bet the flop and check the turn UI, in both hands.

[highlife]

hand 1 - check, fold the turn unless a A/K non diamond hits.

hand 2 - bet and call a checkraise, fold the turn UI.

how did you play 10/20 holdem at the bellagio? or was that just a hypothetical?

[Indiana]

Sorry, it wasnt the bellagio. Little confused, I believe both of these hands were here in Indiana (I'm trying to reconstruct them both as best as I can). I do believe that the Bellagio games I've played were 15/30. I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.

Indy

yeah i just realized - bellagio doesnt spread 10/20?????

[Indiana]

You are right. The first hand was at Caesars Indiana. Sorry.

Indy

there is a caesars indy????

where????

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Check both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


And fold to any bet.


Hand#1 -- Someone here will have a diamond that they won't fold. You are drawing to 4 possibly unclean outs. This seems like an easy fold to me and I wouldn't think anything of it.


Hand#2-- This hand is bit closer in terms of betting, but the King ruins everything. An easy bet on this flop if you had two overs and backdoor flush.

[Indiana]

Caesars Indiana,not Indy. It's down near Louisville on the Ohio River. I get down there for tourneys sometimes and play cash games after I get busted. Its nice, but nothing like Cali/Vegas. Most of the poker action around here is illegal stuff, and we have them on about every corner of the city.

Indy

[elindauer]

Hi Indiana,

The answer here, as with most difficult decisions in hold 'em, is game theory based. You have missed the flop and your hand doesn't really even connect with the board. The straight-forward play is to check, and fold if someone bets.

The problem with always betting and then giving up easily when you are raised is that a) you are frequently beaten, and b) any good player will play back at you the times you aren't.

Of course, if you never bet with nothing, you'd expect your opponents to start noticing and folding whenever ever you did bet the flop. This creates an opportunity for you to bet some flops you missed, especially the K83 dry board that easily could have missed everybody. If they view you as tight, they may well even fold a better hand like a pocket pair that hasn't flopped a set. Take advantage of this too much though, and they start playing back at you with these little pairs, and even with nothing at all.

Now, this does get you extra action when you do have it, but you miss a lot more than you hit, so it's probably better to give up most of the pots you totally miss, building up some fold equity, and using it to steal a pot rather than trying to dig out the same equity by putting yourself in tons of difficult situations with ace high against an opponent who may have it and may not.

If you are a great player, you can use your intellect to determine when your opponents view you as tight and are giving you respect, thus allowing you to bet, and when they think you are a full of it and can be easily pushed off ace high. If you don't think you have this edge, you'll need some randomizer like the second hand on your watch to make this decision.

Finally, live players tend to be more willing to fold a hand, and less willing to raise with nothing, so be a bit more inclined to bet when playing live. In this case, maybe check the all diamond flop, and bet the king-high dry board.

-eric

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, it wasnt the bellagio. Little confused, I believe both of these hands were here in Indiana (I'm trying to reconstruct them both as best as I can). I do believe that the Bellagio games I've played were 15/30. I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, if you checked the flop against 3 opponents every time you missed after raising with two overcards, you would never be giving up much. Against specifically 3 opponents whether to bet or check after you miss the flop is a very close decision. In hand 1, I would check and fold the flop, but against 2 or less opponents I would bet here, since if no one has a diamond or top pair, I may be able to pick up the pot, but with 3 opponents the probabilty that someone has a calling hand is just too high to warrant a bet. In Hand 2, with 4 opponents or more this is an easy check, with 2 or less this is an easy bet, with 3 opponents its close but I think you should still bet and heres why. Since you raised preflop, you could easily have a king and your opponents know this, also, there are almost no draws your opponents can call this flop on so there is a small but significant chance you can pick up this pot with one flop bet. To be precise, if your flop bet will pick up the pot greater than 9.5% of the time than you should bet, and against most opponents this bet will be correct. Also, to digress a bit, against 3 opponents the texture of a flop is extremely important. In hand 2 I told you to bet on a K84r, but if you changed that flop to K94r, I wouldve told you to check and fold. Do you see why? there are now too many common drawing hands that will call you like QJ, JT, QT, combined with made hands like J9,T9,98,Kx,4x, given all these combinations a bet on the flop is unlikely to pick up the pot against 3 opponents, and plus if you do bet and get called in one spot you will likely feel compelled to bet again hoping that your opponent may have one of those weak draws that he will now fold which means that instead of investing one small bet you will often find yourself investing 1.5 big bets to see if you can take this pot down which is usually not a profitable situation for you. Also the best books on how to play overcards IMO are "Middle limit holdem" "small stakes holdem" and "internet texas holdem".

[Indiana]

Thanks guys for the great responses. Great posters here.

Indy

so how will you play these hands next time?

[Indiana]

Next time my feeling is to check the first hand and fold to aggression but to pop it on the flop with the second hand.

Of course, these last couple of posts helped with hand #2 quite a bit. I find myself being a little wimp sometimes at the table. There was a pivotal hand at the WSOP last year where I was on the button with an OESD and two overs and this aggro player popped it. I knew he didnt have it and my gut said "all in". I chumped out and he stole the pot with the nut low.

Indy

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont reccomend raising PF and not betting when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thre are many times when it is correct to raise preflop and check the flop.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.


[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that the late position player may just be betting position or a lower pair than top pair. Watch for players like this. A king high board you can represent AK on as that's the most common preflop raising hand.

The book mid limit holdem and SSHE have great overcard sections in them that will give you some ideas.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
hand 2 - bet and call a checkraise, fold the turn UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not so sure I'd be calling a checkraise after the power I've shown up to that point on a K high rag board.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Indiana,

The answer here, as with most difficult decisions in hold 'em, is game theory based. You have missed the flop and your hand doesn't really even connect with the board. The straight-forward play is to check, and fold if someone bets.

The problem with always betting and then giving up easily when you are raised is that a) you are frequently beaten, and b) any good player will play back at you the times you aren't.

Of course, if you never bet with nothing, you'd expect your opponents to start noticing and folding whenever ever you did bet the flop. This creates an opportunity for you to bet some flops you missed, especially the K83 dry board that easily could have missed everybody. If they view you as tight, they may well even fold a better hand like a pocket pair that hasn't flopped a set. Take advantage of this too much though, and they start playing back at you with these little pairs, and even with nothing at all.

Now, this does get you extra action when you do have it, but you miss a lot more than you hit, so it's probably better to give up most of the pots you totally miss, building up some fold equity, and using it to steal a pot rather than trying to dig out the same equity by putting yourself in tons of difficult situations with ace high against an opponent who may have it and may not.

If you are a great player, you can use your intellect to determine when your opponents view you as tight and are giving you respect, thus allowing you to bet, and when they think you are a full of it and can be easily pushed off ace high. If you don't think you have this edge, you'll need some randomizer like the second hand on your watch to make this decision.

Finally, live players tend to be more willing to fold a hand, and less willing to raise with nothing, so be a bit more inclined to bet when playing live. In this case, maybe check the all diamond flop, and bet the king-high dry board.

-eric

[/ QUOTE ]

nice.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, it wasnt the bellagio. Little confused, I believe both of these hands were here in Indiana (I'm trying to reconstruct them both as best as I can). I do believe that the Bellagio games I've played were 15/30. I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, if you checked the flop against 3 opponents every time you missed after raising with two overcards, you would never be giving up much. Against specifically 3 opponents whether to bet or check after you miss the flop is a very close decision. In hand 1, I would check and fold the flop, but against 2 or less opponents I would bet here, since if no one has a diamond or top pair, I may be able to pick up the pot, but with 3 opponents the probabilty that someone has a calling hand is just too high to warrant a bet. In Hand 2, with 4 opponents or more this is an easy check, with 2 or less this is an easy bet, with 3 opponents its close but I think you should still bet and heres why. Since you raised preflop, you could easily have a king and your opponents know this, also, there are almost no draws your opponents can call this flop on so there is a small but significant chance you can pick up this pot with one flop bet. To be precise, if your flop bet will pick up the pot greater than 9.5% of the time than you should bet, and against most opponents this bet will be correct. Also, to digress a bit, against 3 opponents the texture of a flop is extremely important. In hand 2 I told you to bet on a K84r, but if you changed that flop to K94r, I wouldve told you to check and fold. Do you see why? there are now too many common drawing hands that will call you like QJ, JT, QT, combined with made hands like J9,T9,98,Kx,4x, given all these combinations a bet on the flop is unlikely to pick up the pot against 3 opponents, and plus if you do bet and get called in one spot you will likely feel compelled to bet again hoping that your opponent may have one of those weak draws that he will now fold which means that instead of investing one small bet you will often find yourself investing 1.5 big bets to see if you can take this pot down which is usually not a profitable situation for you. Also the best books on how to play overcards IMO are "Middle limit holdem" "small stakes holdem" and "internet texas holdem".

[/ QUOTE ]



Good stuff. Another reason to not bet the turn here though is if a blank hits the turn and you feel compelled to bet again because it is now heads up and you get called. Or if a jack hits and you get raised.

If these outcomes will cause you to tilt (and by tilt I mean very subtle tilt) and overplay missed overcards in the future it may be better to take a more passive line, not for this hand, but future hands. I say this only because I sometime overplay my overs after hours of getting called down in close situations like this, but if you don't have that problem it's fine. But if you do it may be better to take a more relaxed line in very close overcard situations.

And I agree that if there was only 2 opponents I would bet here everytime in hand#2.