JJ: Playing with an overcard on BOARD

[flopmonster]

CO looks tight after 20 hands
UTG was just loose and his cap to me just said, "WHY NOT?"

I am pretty sure I F'd this one up.. thanks for comments

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero folds.

[toss]

Good fold.

[@bsolute_luck]

once UTG calls i think it is dangerous and you have a tight read CO, so i don't think the fold was horrible unless you think CO would iso you with TT/99.

when i looked at this hand i thought: 3-bet and fold to a cap, but i don't know if that's right. or donk a non-A/K/T/9 turn and fold to a raise from CO.

[pokerjunky]

Given your read on CO this looks like a good fold. Given the preflop action + flop raise I'm putting him on QQ, KK, or AA a vast majority of the time. He could be raising TT but I doubt it, and you still have to worry about UTG.

I don't think its a bad idea to call and donk the turn/fold to a raise. That was my initial reaction to this hand.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its a bad idea to call and donk the turn/fold to a raise. That was my initial reaction to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

= spewing an extra 1.5BBs.

CO is tight and 3-bet PF. His range is pretty small and well defined. He didn't have the chance to cap PF and is now continuing his PF aggression on the flop. Putting in any more bets after the initial flop bet is just hating money.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its a bad idea to call and donk the turn/fold to a raise. That was my initial reaction to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

= spewing an extra 1.5BBs.

CO is tight and 3-bet PF. His range is pretty small and well defined. He didn't have the chance to cap PF and is now continuing his PF aggression on the flop. Putting in any more bets after the initial flop bet is just hating money.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Looks tight after 20 hands" doesn't = rock.

Good fold

1) no draw on the board
2) an overcall

I think you have 2 outs at best.

LLL

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its a bad idea to call and donk the turn/fold to a raise. That was my initial reaction to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

= spewing an extra 1.5BBs.

CO is tight and 3-bet PF. His range is pretty small and well defined. He didn't have the chance to cap PF and is now continuing his PF aggression on the flop. Putting in any more bets after the initial flop bet is just hating money.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahah i'm sorry i just have to laugh at your postings about spewing after reading K4o (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=3849275&amp;an=0&amp;page=0&amp;gone w=1#UNREAD) and 82s (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=3849734&amp;an=0&amp;page=0&amp;gone w=1#UNREAD)

I think you played this the best you could. Given UTG's call/cap play on the flop I wouldn't be surprised if he was after a check raise on the flop. So good fold on the turn. If UTG wasn't there I'd be tempted to call the flop.

I guess checking the flop would of been too weak but given you had a preflop raiser to come and someone who likes to make too many plays after him I'd of been tempted to see what happened and fold to any raise by UTG. Probably too weak as I say.

[Shiva]

What was CO read of you? Assuming CO figured you for a LAG isolating you with TT/99 makes sense. Continuing with aggression on flop to eliminate EP player to define his hand and get HU with you. Betting the turn hoping for a fold or free showdown with position makes sense to me.

I would check call turn and hope for freebie on river.

BustN_Lose

[SeaEagle]

Getting 18-1 and closing the action, this seems like an easy peel. You will certainly get 4 more sbs if you hit the turn. And there is a decent chance that the turn will get checked through.

I like a call and a turn donk/fold. You will see a raise on the flop often enough from CO with AK, TT, 99. Who knows what UTG has. The cold call from UTG doesn't scare me yet.

[flopmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
What was CO read of you? Assuming CO figured you for a LAG isolating you with TT/99 makes sense. Continuing with aggression on flop to eliminate EP player to define his hand and get HU with you. Betting the turn hoping for a fold or free showdown with position makes sense to me.

I would check call turn and hope for freebie on river.

BustN_Lose

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said there had only been 20 hands played and honestly I can't remember what my "table image" was because I can't recall if I had raised a few pots or won pots or whatever. This hand really pissed me off when I saw the results, but looking back on it I think its a really tough spot and cases could be made for both the peel and fold UI, call and donk, and folding on the flop like I did.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 18-1 and closing the action, this seems like an easy peel. You will certainly get 4 more sbs if you hit the turn. And there is a decent chance that the turn will get checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope you are posting in the wrong thread. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[flopmonster]

Villain had 10 10 and won UI and MHWHBG

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting 18-1 and closing the action, this seems like an easy peel. You will certainly get 4 more sbs if you hit the turn. And there is a decent chance that the turn will get checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope you are posting in the wrong thread. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
What part of my statement do you disagree with?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Getting 18-1 and closing the action, this seems like an easy peel. You will certainly get 4 more sbs if you hit the turn. And there is a decent chance that the turn will get checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope you are posting in the wrong thread. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
What part of my statement do you disagree with?

[/ QUOTE ]

SeaEagle's rational for peeling here seems right on to me. I'm interested what Soko disagrees with.

[brettbrettr]

I'd peel and see what CO does on the turn. Yes, its a fairly drawless flop. But you're closing the action in a big pot and there's a fairly decent chance you have the best hand.

[W. Deranged]

I don't particularly like betting this flop, honestly.

It basically seems that betting this flop is more or less committing to getting raised and then either dumping right there or on the turn.

UTG's limp-reraise followed by check is probably an action play with suited connectors. Jake's post a few months back showed that this kind of thing is as likely to be going on with suited connectors or even weirder stuff than it is with AA or KK.

So I'm more concerned with the pre-flop three-bettor (edit). We are not totally far behind his range at this point, as TT, 99, and AK are all possibilities. Importantly, I think we are getting raised by all of those hands a substantial portion of the time. In other words, us betting and getting raised more or less tells us nothing most of the time (unless it UTG check-three-bets or something).

When we consider that there is very little chance that this flop gets checked through, that we can easily dump our hand to a bet and a UTG check-raise (and save ourself that initial feeler bet), that any hand that has even a few outs to our hand isn't going anywhere in a pot this size (particularly AK), and that a blank turn card will greatly help to define our equity, it is quite clear to me:

HERO SHOULD HAVE CHECKED THE FLOP!

More of then not betting just puts us in a position like hero found himself in, which basically sucks (particularly as we probably should call a flop raise for the reasons SeaEagle mentioned).

My preferred line on this hand:

Check-call the flop (folding to a bet+check-raise). Donk a blank turn (folding to a raise, a donk-bet from UTG, or if the turn card is an A or K). Reevaluate on the river.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd peel and see what CO does on the turn. Yes, its a fairly drawless flop. But you're closing the action in a big pot and there's a fairly decent chance you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you would check the turn? wouldn't TT/99 bet again if checked to?

[flopmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly like betting this flop, honestly.

It basically seems that betting this flop is more or less committing to getting raised and then either dumping right there or on the turn.

UTG's limp-reraise followed by check is probably an action play with suited connectors. Jake's post a few months back showed that this kind of thing is as likely to be going on with suited connectors or even weirder stuff than it is with AA or KK.

So I'm more concerned with the pre-flop three-bettor (edit). We are not totally far behind his range at this point, as TT, 99, and AK are all possibilities. Importantly, I think we are getting raised by all of those hands a substantial portion of the time. In other words, us betting and getting raised more or less tells us nothing most of the time (unless it UTG check-three-bets or something).

When we consider that there is very little chance that this flop gets checked through, that we can easily dump our hand to a bet and a UTG check-raise (and save ourself that initial feeler bet), that any hand that has even a few outs to our hand isn't going anywhere in a pot this size (particularly AK), and that a blank turn card will greatly help to define our equity, it is quite clear to me:

HERO SHOULD HAVE CHECKED THE FLOP!

More of then not betting just puts us in a position like hero found himself in, which basically sucks (particularly as we probably should call a flop raise for the reasons SeaEagle mentioned).

My preferred line on this hand:

Check-call the flop (folding to a bet+check-raise). Donk a blank turn (folding to a raise, a donk-bet from UTG, or if the turn card is an A or K). Reevaluate on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really like this suggestion
When I bet on the flop I was thinking, "I know he's gonna raise me, but I gotta bet" ...Basically what I didn't want was to have to call this guy(and possibly UTG) down. SO I subconsciously knew he was gonna raise me and just copped out basically. I still think in this I'm beat more times than I'm not villain has to have jj qq kk aa or aq to beat me.