KQ flop decision

[NLSoldier]

Villian is unknown. Hasnt been at the table long.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero ($447.58)
MP ($600)
Button ($727.45)
SB ($194.20)
BB ($590.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Qd, Kc. SB posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($49) Kd, Jh, Ts <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $47</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $125</font>,

What my line from here?

[Jeff W]

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What my line from here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold?

[Murderous]

Save yourself some money next time and check/call the flop. Soo many hands beat you (i.e. JJ, TT, AQ, AK, KJ, JT) and if you hit your draw its not unlikely villian will have hit his as well.

This is a good example why KQ from early position/OOP is terrible - its difficult to determine where you're at when facing strength.

At this point do whatever you feel like. You choose.

-M

[ahnuld]

Fold, are you kidding? He could easily have something like QJ. Checking that flop is horrible to whoever said that. I like calling, but I like moving in better, especially if he would have reraised you with KK JJ TT preflop.

[wiggs73]

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This is a good example why KQ from early position/OOP is terrible - its difficult to determine where you're at when facing strength.

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But check-calling the flop doesn't make this about 10x more difficult? Also, if you aren't raising KQs at a 5 handed table, then you probably don't belong at a 5 handed table.

As for the hand, I think a fold is fine.

[youngin20]

Ok, but he ALSO would have called with something like KJ. Actually, I think KJ or JT are very likely here. However its 75 more to you, and you can bust him on the turn or river with an ace or nine. call here, see what he does on the turn.

[wiggs73]

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Ok, but he ALSO would have called with something like KJ. Actually, I think KJ or JT are very likely here. However its 75 more to you, and you can bust him on the turn or river with an ace or nine. call here, see what he does on the turn.

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I'm not so convinced that villain stacks you with 2 pair on a board of AKJT.

[etizzle]

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but I like moving in better

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wow

[flawless_victory]

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but I like moving in better

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wow

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so funny.. little ahnuld has entered the LAG phase...

[Murderous]

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Fold, are you kidding? He could easily have something like QJ. Checking that flop is horrible to whoever said that. I like calling, but I like moving in better, especially if he would have reraised you with KK JJ TT preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How's that exactly? Checking gives you more options and reverse-implied odds comes to mind.

Can hero assume villian will re-raise preflop with JJ or TT here? Why risk so much hoping for villian to turn over QJ? Won't that be fun to chop it when the draw comes with so many chippies in the middle?

Heh..."horrible".

[flawless_victory]

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. Checking that flop is horrible to whoever said that.

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im glad we now havea bonafide NLH authority on the board, cause i check this flop often.

[Murderous]

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But check-calling the flop doesn't make this about 10x more difficult? Also, if you aren't raising KQs at a 5 handed table, then you probably don't belong at a 5 handed table.

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I don't think it becomes anymore difficult than it already is...

...and good point regarding playing short handed (I missed that). My comment was intended to be in the context of a full-ring game.

[edge]

I push because I am overaggressive.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I check the flop. But now that we're here, I guess you should just push. It's more fun.

push? dont you just get called by the nuts or a set though?

[TheWorstPlayer]

So you're saying that he'll fold anything short of the nuts and a set? Sounds good to me since he'll often have two pair here. And maybe he'll fold bottom set? That would be really sweet. And maybe he'll fold pair+straight draw which has plenty of outs to win or chop? I wouldn't really mind that either. And if he calls with a set, we have several outs to win? Cool. But I agree that check/calling is better. Which is why I would have checked. But he didn't.

[fsuplayer]

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So you're saying that he'll fold anything short of the nuts and a set? Sounds good to me since he'll often have two pair here. And maybe he'll fold bottom set? That would be really sweet.

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lmao. you think poeple are folding sets here? or top two? i wouldnt count on it in that game.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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So you're saying that he'll fold anything short of the nuts and a set? Sounds good to me since he'll often have two pair here. And maybe he'll fold bottom set? That would be really sweet.

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lmao. you think poeple are folding sets here? or top two? i wouldnt count on it in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wasn't saying that he would. I was just showing why Tex's comment didn't make any sense. As I said before, I would rather check/call flop here as default. But once I bet, I'm not folding and I like pushing better than calling.

[NLSoldier]

Well based on the conflicting replies at least I feel like Im not a total idiot for not knowing what to do here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

After I bet and he raised I realized that checking the flop and avoiding this spot would have been nice. But if I check and he pots it, then what? Call and check fold the turn if I dont improve and he bets big again?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Um...depends on the player, obviously? Against most you can probably check/fold the turn. Against some you should be happy to get it all in on the turn.

[ahnuld]

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. Checking that flop is horrible to whoever said that.

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im glad we now havea bonafide NLH authority on the board, cause i check this flop often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I would have written IMO but I didnt feel it was necessary. Since this is an internet discussion board IMO is a given. I never claimed that is the only way to pay it, IMO/ given the way I play, checking is horrible.

At this level, a continuation bet will take it down on the flop 50% of the time. I make that bet with 77, KK KQ or anything I raised with. I dont wnat to let up when I actually flop a hand and have people play back at me when I flop [censored] and raise so Ill play it like I would KK or AQ here and then he would be in for a world of hurt.

Once we are raised, it makes it harder to play but I feel pushinhg is the correct play for a few reasons.

1. We have decent equity against many of his possible hands.
Kings up, we have 48%. Set, we still have 29%. Straight gets a bit ugly, but 2 pair is much more likely IMO.

2. We have fold equity. He will definitly fold one pair, might fold KJ KT JT type hands. Since I feel these are all very possible, I think the fold equity is decent, actually as high as 30%

3. We do this when we have KK or AQ and this will allow us to get action on those hands. If he knows we push a hand like this, then he must call with KJ which could be drawing nearly dead when we have AQ KK JJ TT.


This is why I feel pushing is the best play. I could be very worng, but instead of making some smartass one-liner, please prove me wrong using logic and probabilities.

[NLSoldier]

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At this level, a continuation bet will take it down on the flop 50% of the time. I make that bet with 77, KK KQ or anything I raised with. I dont wnat to let up when I actually flop a hand and have people play back at me when I flop [censored] and raise so Ill play it like I would KK or AQ here and then he would be in for a world of hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my reason for betting. So far in my very short NL career I have been a flop betting machine and have taken down tons and tons of pots uncontested. Which Im sure is normal but it definately feels weird coming from limit where a flop better almost never takes it down.

[ QUOTE ]

Once we are raised, it makes it harder to play but I feel pushinhg is the correct play for a few reasons.

1. We have decent equity against many of his possible hands.
Kings up, we have 48%. Set, we still have 29%. Straight gets a bit ugly, but 2 pair is much more likely IMO.

2. We have fold equity. He will definitly fold one pair, might fold KJ KT JT type hands. Since I feel these are all very possible, I think the fold equity is decent, actually as high as 30%

3. We do this when we have KK or AQ and this will allow us to get action on those hands. If he knows we push a hand like this, then he must call with KJ which could be drawing nearly dead when we have AQ KK JJ TT.


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I did end up pushing and this sums up my thinking at the time really well.

[fsuplayer]

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So you're saying that he'll fold anything short of the nuts and a set? Sounds good to me since he'll often have two pair here. And maybe he'll fold bottom set? That would be really sweet.

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lmao. you think poeple are folding sets here? or top two? i wouldnt count on it in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wasn't saying that he would. I was just showing why Tex's comment didn't make any sense. As I said before, I would rather check/call flop here as default. But once I bet, I'm not folding and I like pushing better than calling.

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wow. my detector was turned off apparently. im an idiot.

ill blame it on a bad morning session. sry TWP. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif