Overly Aggressive in an Aggressive Game?

[Softrock]

I've been mulling this hand over for a week and debating whether to post it and what I would be trying to learn by posting it. I have concluded that I indeed made a good play. this then gives me a reason to post the hand - looking for dissent with rationale.

First of all, the nature of the game is crucial to understanding what I'm doing here. It's 40-80 with a number of tight but hyper-aggressive players, the most hyper-aggressive of all being the guy to my immediate left. I have been running over the table, everything I've done has worked. I made a steal raise on the button with 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , got 3-bet by the SB, called by the BB and flop came T98 rainbow - I won a big pot and upset the SB who called me down with JJ. It was my second pot in a row and when I look down on the next deal ad see A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif I raise a limper saying out loud "Maybe I'm on a rush". The SB from hand before (now the button) 3-bets me and I just know he's thinking I'm making a bet anything cos I'm rushing move (which I do not do but he doesn't know that). He 3-bets me, raises my flop bet, when rags fall, bets the turn and bets the river and shows AQ to my AK and says "I guess your raise was legitimate, I'm staying out of your way" (and he meant it).

I've stolen alot of blinds in late position with marginal hands, but I'm not being crazy (some might say what I'm about to tell you was indeed crazy). Here goes. I'm in the cutoff and it's folded to me and I raise with 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . Button (remember he's Mr. hyperaggressive) flat calls - this is a really strange play for him - he would 3-bet with any pair that he was going to play and that might be any pair at all. BB calls. I'm sort of thinking my hyperaggressive guy must have something like AKo, AT or AJ suited or something like that - he is not ever the type to flat call with a big hand like AA or KK (his pre-existing aggressive image gets him plenty of action anyway when he has one of these hands).

The flop is: Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . BB checks, I bet my flush draw, hyperaggressive flat calls, BB folds. Now hyper agressive would indeed flat call with a Q in this situation. Turn is 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . I check and Mr. hyperagressive checks!!! I don't think this guy checks if he has any part of this board nor does he check any pocket pair. Before I can fully think through what I will do, the river comes and is the 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif .

Believe it or not, I bet my pair of 3s for value!! I got called and my hand was good.

Now, am I playing bad, getting lucky, and fooling myself, or did I actually make a good play? No flames please - I want reasons for any disagreements.

[astroglide]

I raise a limper saying out loud "Maybe I'm on a rush".

could you make it any more obvious you have a hand? /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

the player is aggressive, and the board is dangerous. i think value betting is a bad idea because of how easily you can get taken off your hand. if you have the balls to bet for value and then call his 'obvious bluff raise' for value, well, i guess that's another thread's worth of material. i think that's a bad play too unless you know the player like the back of your hand. if you do, why would you need to post?

[mike l.]

tommy, elysium, ulysses, snakehead, andy fox, dynasty, rick, clark, deez, coilean, all you guys. sorry but your reign is over. softrock is the new head cheese around here. he's playing 40-80 against cuckoos and kicking their butts and posting about it. i think he has a lot to teach us.

soft, this is a very good value bet on the end. your read is spot on. you really earned the 80 bucks on this one. please post more hands.

[Softrock]

"could you make it any more obvious you have a hand?"

You know, that's what I would have thought and I think anyone at the table who knew me would have thought similarly. I actually was just chatting and having fun (having the deck hit you does that to me anyway) and I think the guy was still sorta steaming about my 8T suited against his JJ and was gonna teach this loose wild man a thing or two - something like that.

"i think that's a bad play too unless you know the player like the back of your hand. if you do, why would you need to post?"


Not quite like the back of my hand, but as well as I know most members of my family. I look at all these sorts of things as matters of probability not as absolutes - I was 85-90% sure of my read and that's enough for a value bet. As for posting the hand, I thought the same thing at first - why post a hand if I'm just asking for kudos or without a real question. I'm sort of doing a reality check of my own reasoning/belief system. Part of the problem though is that you really had to be aware of how this game was playing. Once the flop came you had many aggressive players betting draws, trying to push people off hands and thus made hands were getting paid off because there was so much betting aggressively. I think my opponent is thinking that if I had any of that board I would have continued betting on the turn, it looks like I missed my draw (which I did) and how the hell can he figure the 3 helped me so he's gonna call me down (I would have thought the same thing against me if I had been in his position). Incidentally, I didn't bet the turn because of Mason et. al.'s thinking of check with outs, bet with no outs - I didn't want to be charged two bets to draw to my flush draw and this is the sort of player who whould have raised with AJ in this situation.

[Ulysses]

a) Sounds like you're playing well and also hitting hands. In that situation, even though it looks pretty, I'd toss 34s into the muck and steal the blinds later w/ some higher cards. Pretty clear muck, I think.

b) Having gotten to the river the way you did, I think you have a clear value bet. I agree w/ your reasoning. I don't see a pair check-calling the flop and checking the turn in this type of game.

[elysium]

hi soft
very bad pre-flop raise with an aggressive on the button soft. yea, you mustn't do that. it can be very expensive. this is high card territory, even though it may look like suited connectorie.

the agressive, believe it or not, has AKh. you made a good value bet because he won't fold. could you have been raised? no, he wants to show you his AKh, and it's worth a call.

raising in from the CO with a 4 hi 3 kicker, suits unimportant will come up against very heavy resistance. for ex.; what are you going to do when he comes firing back with a reraise holding J6o? or T2o? and all he needs to do is just hit a piece of the board by the turn to continue betting into you to the river? remember, 43 makes these type holdings seem strong to powerful on the show-down. i remember being shown Q3o once; i was never so embarrassed in my life! i was 5 hi, had the 3 to go along with it. his 3 was stronger than my three.

[mike l.]

"i remember being shown Q3o once; i was never so embarrassed in my life! i was 5 hi, had the 3 to go along with it. his 3 was stronger than my three."

and that's only happened to you once?

it's official. we're not playing too loose; youre playing too tight. sorry to break it to you, but it's kind of appropriate really that it be me who does it.

[Ikke]

I think this is an fairly easy valuebet.

The hyperaggressive button play seems strange. He played this hand very passively, only calling and checking. Either he is trying to trap you or he just has something like A high. He doesnt seem at all geared up to outplay you with for instance a river raise with A high. Therefore I think you can fold to a river raise, and if that's the case, you have a clear river bet.

Regards

[Tommy Angelo]

"why post a hand if I'm just asking for kudos or without a real question."

Maybe because this is a writer's forum and you felt like writing?

Great river bet.

Tommy

[Softrock]

elysium - thanks for the thoughts - I appreciate your thinking. However, I disagree with you on the BTF raise with 34s. I went back and looked at Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players and note that 34s is a group 7 hand. S and M state "You should understand that if you are in late position and are the first player to enter the pot, any hand you should play is worth a raise. This usually means hands in Groups 1-7, maybe those in Group 8, and even worse hands if you think your opponents are tight enough that you have a decent chance to steal the blinds."

First of all I don't think most of us would think of the S and M advice as overly loose. Secondly, this is written for the general case and the game I was in I believe I had a greater than 50% chance of winning the blinds right there. Plus, if one of the blinds call I can represent big cards or surprise them if I hit something - I believe the only time I lose is when they hit their hand, which has to be less than 35% of the time. Hopefully, I play well enough that if it appears one of the blinds has hit their hand that I can just get the hell out.

[34TheTruth34]

Am I the only one who thinks this river bet is horrible??? C'mon, I can't be! Would everyone think this bet was so great if Mr. Hyper Aggressive called and showed JT??

The reasons I wouldn't bet:

1. I have something to showdown, so a bluff isn't necessary.

2. Mr. Hyper Aggressive will probably bet a wide range of hands here if I check, and I can call and catch a bluff.

3. An extremely aggressive opponent has played this hand very passively, which most likely means he's on a draw.

4. There are almost no hands he can call here with that I have beat.

5. If he raises on the river, I really can't call.

I think this is a horrible "value bet", but if you think he may lay down a jack or better then I like the bet. However, given your description of this opponent, this is clearly not the case.

[astroglide]

'if you think your opponents are tight enough that you have a decent chance to steal the blinds'

it could also be observed how grossly overvalued j9s and its ilk are by s&m material

[Softrock]

3. An extremely aggressive opponent has played this hand very passively, which most likely means he's on a draw.

4. There are almost no hands he can call here with that I have beat.


But you see, it is the sum of these two, plus his thinking about what I am thinking that made the decision. He is thinking that I put him on a draw and he's also thinking that I can't have anything and therefore believes that he should call with Ace high.

Additionally, no way in hell this guy lays down a Jack. The bet was for value, not with the intention of getting a better hand to muck as I knew that would not happen. The key here is this player, in this game would have bet the turn with a Jack - no way he's giving me a free draw to 10 potential outs if I'm holding AK.

[34TheTruth34]

If you put him on a draw and he's as aggressive as you say he is, won't he bet a lot more hands on the river then he'll call with??

My point is that even if you somehow knew 100% that your hand was good, wouldn't you still make more money with it by checking the river against this particular opponent??

One other thing that I forgot to mention in my original response: I think the preflop raise is bad because you are running over the table. If the rest of the table is starting to think you are pushing them around with garbage, (even though you've just gotten a run of real good cards and haven't had to showdown) then they'll be calling you and playing back at you more. Therefore, you should be betting your strong hands more for value, but definitely not raising with 4-high.

No offense intended because usually I agree with your posts, but I really think you played this hand badly from start to finish.