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11-03-2005, 01:48 AM
Player 1 is on a pure bluff and bets out on the river.

Player 2 has some kind of hand but doesnt like it too much.


Player 2 asks Player 1 if he would show his hand if he folds.

Player 1 says: "yes, i'll show'.


To me that sounds like Player 1 wanted the Player 2 to fold.

So saying: "yes, i'll show" is to me the same as saying: "Please fold."


So Player 1 saying: Yes, i'll show" should make the call for Player 2 easier imho.


Any thoughts on this? /images/graemlins/cool.gif
SoftcoreRevolt
11-03-2005, 02:03 AM
Or Player 1 is thinking "Hahaha he sure will be pissed when I say I'll show and then I don't show."
TexArcher
11-03-2005, 02:09 AM
If I'm player 1 why would I possibly answer that question? Why not watch player two fold more often than not, whether I'm bluffing, or semi-bluffing, etc?...
Guthrie
11-03-2005, 04:13 AM
Who's on first?
Ianco15
11-03-2005, 06:02 AM
This might be true if your opponent is thinking on the first level.
11-03-2005, 06:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Who's on first?

[/ QUOTE ]

To act first you mean? Player 1.
11-03-2005, 06:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This might be true if your opponent is thinking on the first level.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, Player 2 can think: "He says I'll show, to make me think he has nothing and i'll call against his monster."

Player 1 can think: I'll say: "I'll show" so he thinks I want a call because he thinks I'm pretending to be weak. And therefore he'll fold.

An infinitive loop really.
TexArcher
11-03-2005, 10:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who's on first?

[/ QUOTE ]

To act first you mean? Player 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chuckle.
Bosox
11-03-2005, 11:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who's on first?

[/ QUOTE ]

To act first you mean? Player 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's on second?
Zetack
11-03-2005, 11:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who's on first?

[/ QUOTE ]

To act first you mean? Player 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's on second?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno
danvh
11-03-2005, 12:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who's on first?

[/ QUOTE ]

To act first you mean? Player 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's on second?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

3rd Base!
11-03-2005, 02:02 PM
I had this exact situation arise one of the first times I ever played NL hold 'em. A local sports bar had a charity NL tournament where the grand prize (and only prize) was a $5000 WPT seat and airfare/hotel. I made the final table and had a decent hand but went all in on what was mostly a bluff (I had a medium pair but there was a straight possibility on the board). (Looking back it was a poor play since I was a newer player and didn't realize I didn't need to risk all my chips to bluff someone out.) The guy in the pot with me thought and thought and then asked me, "If I fold will you show me?" I thought for a bit and said yes, assuming he would then fold. He did, I showed him and he cussed and showed me his set. I knocked him out a few hands later when I flopped a straight and went all in and he called. But I finished 3rd and missed the WPT seat.

So for what it's worth, in that real example he asked and folded.
11-03-2005, 03:23 PM
This is quite an interesting conundrum, in terms of psychology and deception. Sounds related to game theory as well.

Lets think: why did Player 2 ask that?

Reason 1: To make a deal, so that if he folds (which he probably already decided to) Player 1 will show his cards, and thus satisfy his curiosity. In this , we can already assume Player 2 is gonna fold even if Player1 doesn't agree. Why? Because it'd be stupid for Player 2 to make what he considers a bad call just to pay to see Player 1's cards. If he was willing to do that, he's already making a bad decision, no matter the outcome.

Reason 2: To test Player 1's response and decide if to call or not.

In the simplest case, this would mean -
Player 1 will show - wants me to fold, so he's weak, I should call
Player 1 will not show - wants me to call, so he's strong, I should fold

But if Player 2 "second-thinks" Player 1 what thinks, it might be the opposite -
Player 1 will show - fakes weakness, actually strong, I should fold
Player 1 will not show - fakes strength, actually weak, I should call

Plus of course, there is the other "non-deceptive" reasons for PLayer 1's actions, ie
Player 1 will show - just being friendly because he asked, or he doesn't care
Player 1 will not show - just following principle of never showing his hands, or
don't want to show because he's bluffing

So obviously, even if Player 2 wants to test Player's response, he really wouldn't have a
good lock on Player 1's intentions.

* * * * *
Bottomline - what should Player 1 do?
Since it probably doesn't matter either way, If you want to be friendly, show. If you don't want to show, then don't show. If you want to increase your chance of winning more money because you have him beat, then say "Don't show", at least this will probably put a normal player on tilt.

What should Player 2 do?
If originally asked question due to Reason 1, then of course fold no matter what.

If originally asked question due to Reason 2, you were already thinking of basing your decision on your read of Player 1, so do that! It's very uncertain either way, IMO.


And lastly, in general, my experience is that, for non-Pros, Player 1 will agree to show and Player 2 will fold. And the outcome is just as likely to be that either Player 1 or 2 would have won. Don't know about Pros, they probably wouldn't ask that question in the first place, and won't say anything if asked?

PS. I just came up with this analysis and same thing happened to me in my last poker game, so I was interested. It's definitely up for revision, but I think everyone would agree that there's probably no "easy" way of figuring out an optimal decision if there is one.

Long rant ..
JKratzer
11-03-2005, 03:38 PM
in my experience anyone asking the question is going to fold anyway, and they just want to see your hand.
UATrewqaz
11-03-2005, 03:55 PM
I tell them I will show and then I don't.

And when they get all pissy be like "You believe everything you're told at a poker table?" and they usually shut up.
11-03-2005, 04:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
in my experience anyone asking the question is going to fold anyway, and they just want to see your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
11-04-2005, 12:25 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I saw the exact scenario in a 5000NL live game (live@thebike).

The bluffer said: I'll show, and the other guy folded.


The guy that folded was Joe Nguyen.
bmxreed36
11-04-2005, 03:22 AM
I've been asked this a couple times and just reply "sorry, I don't show my hands". Easy way to get around it whether you're bluffing or not. If I like them though and see them away from the table I might tell em.
Jive Dadson
11-04-2005, 10:02 PM
When someone asks me that, I say exactly the same thing I always say when someone asks me a question when it's their turn to act. I say, "."
11-06-2005, 11:06 AM
You say "DOT"?

IF you start saying: " Goldenpalace DOT com" you might even start earning something with it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
11-06-2005, 04:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
in my experience anyone asking the question is going to fold anyway, and they just want to see your hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.
11-06-2005, 05:07 PM
this statement is an encouragement for the other to call.
DcifrThs
11-06-2005, 05:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Player 1 is on a pure bluff and bets out on the river.

Player 2 has some kind of hand but doesnt like it too much.


Player 2 asks Player 1 if he would show his hand if he folds.

Player 1 says: "yes, i'll show'.


To me that sounds like Player 1 wanted the Player 2 to fold.

So saying: "yes, i'll show" is to me the same as saying: "Please fold."


So Player 1 saying: Yes, i'll show" should make the call for Player 2 easier imho.


Any thoughts on this? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i do this with huge hands in NL.

Barron