Atlantic Trout - TPcrapK

[durron597]

Villian in this hand is realjobu. SFB is sitting out. My image is pretty active.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

UTG+1 (t1975)
MP1 (t1060)
MP2 (t1020)
CO (t2335)
Button (t2625)
Hero (t1310)
BB (t1320)
UTG (t1855)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t90) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t90) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t120</font>, Hero calls t60.

River: (t330) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t150</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1160</font>

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SB in this hand is JohnnyBGood. My image is still relatively bad.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

MP1 (t1975)
MP2 (t1085)
CO (t1045)
Button (t950)
SB (t2425)
Hero (t2895)
UTG (t1275)
UTG+1 (t1850)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t100) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t100) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

River: (t300) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t300

[bigt439]

Hand 1 is ugly. I fold pf first off. Flop is fine depending on what you were planning on doing. Turn is good. River is gross. What is he supposed to call you with? River check raises are almost never bluffs. Case in point.

I bet the river in hand 2 having underrepresented my hand like that (which is totally fine).

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is ugly. I fold pf first off. Flop is fine depending on what you were planning on doing. Turn is good. River is gross. What is he supposed to call you with? River check raises are almost never bluffs. Case in point.

I bet the river in hand 2 having underrepresented my hand like that (which is totally fine).

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In both hands remember that this is against other 2+2ers, not party donks.

[pineapple888]

The phrase "Loose/Weak" comes to mind, but what do I know.

[jeffraider]

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Hand 1 is ugly. I fold pf first off. Flop is fine depending on what you were planning on doing. Turn is good. River is gross. What is he supposed to call you with? River check raises are almost never bluffs. Case in point.

I bet the river in hand 2 having underrepresented my hand like that (which is totally fine).

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In both hands remember that this is against other 2+2ers, not party donks.

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That makes the preflop complete in hand one even worse! Why volunteer to play a terrible hand with almost no stacking value out of position against an opponent who has the potential to either A) outplay you using his position or B) not pay you off when you do make a hand?

[durron597]

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That makes the preflop complete in hand one even worse! Why volunteer to play a terrible hand with almost no stacking value out of position against an opponent who has the potential to either A) outplay you using his position or B) not pay you off when you do make a hand?

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The BB is guaranteed to fold and I'm getting 5:1 and I play well postflop?

[Jbrochu]

Hand 2 you should have pushed on the river... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

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Hand 2 you should have pushed on the river... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Why, what worse hands pay me off?

[jeffraider]

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That makes the preflop complete in hand one even worse! Why volunteer to play a terrible hand with almost no stacking value out of position against an opponent who has the potential to either A) outplay you using his position or B) not pay you off when you do make a hand?

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The BB is guaranteed to fold and I'm getting 5:1 and I play well postflop?

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5:1 isn't enough!

[Jbrochu]

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Quote:
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Hand 2 you should have pushed on the river...


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Why, what worse hands pay me off?

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Probably none. I was just hoping you doubled me up! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

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Quote:
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Hand 2 you should have pushed on the river...


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Why, what worse hands pay me off?

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Probably none. I was just hoping you doubled me up! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Oh, I didn't know who your 2+2 username was /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[cha59]

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That makes the preflop complete in hand one even worse! Why volunteer to play a terrible hand with almost no stacking value out of position against an opponent who has the potential to either A) outplay you using his position or B) not pay you off when you do make a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB is guaranteed to fold and I'm getting 5:1 and I play well postflop?

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5:1 isn't enough!

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In these games you dont have a lot of opportunities to get many chips by seeing a cheap flop because everyone is either folding or raising preflop. This was one.

Im not saying folding Q3 preflop here is bad, but I think calling here is better and durron played the whole hand perfectly in this game IMO. Knowing how the other player plays is key in these situations.

I hate hand 2. SB is unlikely to be trapping with stacks this deep, so you're probably good preflop, so raise. On the flop you're damn likely to be good and haven't repped an A at all and cards in villain's range have fallen, so bet. Ditto for the turn. River is a situation I don't want to be in, and maybe check's ok.

[bigt439]

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Hand 1 is ugly. I fold pf first off. Flop is fine depending on what you were planning on doing. Turn is good. River is gross. What is he supposed to call you with? River check raises are almost never bluffs. Case in point.

I bet the river in hand 2 having underrepresented my hand like that (which is totally fine).

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In both hands remember that this is against other 2+2ers, not party donks.

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Exactly. What good player is calling you on the river with a hand worse than Q3?

[durron597]

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Exactly. What good player is calling you on the river with a hand worse than Q3?

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Remember, in general I am playing LAG. What are you doing with a hand like KQ, QJ, QT here? I think automatically saying "fold" is very weak tight.

If you were the villian, what would you put hero on? Surely the 3 didn't help him...

[bigt439]

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Exactly. What good player is calling you on the river with a hand worse than Q3?

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Remember, in general I am playing LAG. What are you doing with a hand like KQ, QJ, QT here? I think automatically saying "fold" is very weak tight.

If you were the villian, what would you put hero on? Surely the 3 didn't help him...

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I would fold those hands because this line doesn't make sense for a bluff. The reason it's a bad bluff is because you're risking your whole stack to win a medium size pot, and you're not really representing any legitimate hand while you do it. Out of the range you are bluffing out, a fair amount still calls. This opponent has represented a strong hand and there is no reason to think you can take him off of it. So you would not bluff here. If your opponent is good, they will realize it makes no sense to bluff here and give you credit for a hand. This will likely only work to an extent though because it becomes increasingly harder to lay down better hands. In fact, I think the threshold actually lies somewhere around your hand, meaning that your opponent folds everything worse than your hand and calls with everything better.

Now you might say, well if this makes no sense for a bluff, and we're getting them to fold tpgk hands, why not do this as a bluff. But it still doesn't make much sense as a bluff because you're still getting called by a decent portion of their range even though you do fold out some made hands.

So it doesn't make much sense as a bluff because you're risking your stack to win a medium pot against an opponent who can call with alot, but what they can't really call with are the hands that your Q3 beats. And that's why this is a bad value bet IMO. I'm saying that he's essentially told us he has at least a Q or better. He should know you know this. So if you show the mammoth strength that check raising the river indicates he will likely fold a lone Q. He can do this because he knows you shouldn't be bluffing this river either because so much of his range calls that its not worth risking your tournament. Even though you've shown huge strength though I don't think he can fold two pair or better because this is what you could be doing this with. Given the dead money and people's love of good hands he likely calls with two pair or better. Essentially you're folding out hands you beat and not hand that beat you. Not the optimal value bet.

I'm having alot of trouble conveying what I'm trying to say, but I know exactly what I want to say. It's rather frustrating, but hopefully you get the idea.

[durron597]

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So it doesn't make much sense as a bluff because you're risking your stack to win a medium pot against an opponent who can call with alot, but what they can't really call with are the hands that your Q3 beats. And that's why this is a bad value bet IMO. I'm saying that he's essentially told us he has at least a Q or better.

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You aren't factoring my active image into play at all.

Results for hand 1: He had QJ and called.

I jam the fold button so fast when I see Q3 offsuit in a full game. This hand is questionable even heads up!

[bigt439]

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So it doesn't make much sense as a bluff because you're risking your stack to win a medium pot against an opponent who can call with alot, but what they can't really call with are the hands that your Q3 beats. And that's why this is a bad value bet IMO. I'm saying that he's essentially told us he has at least a Q or better.

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You aren't factoring my active image into play at all.

Results for hand 1: He had QJ and called.

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Uhhh. That's just not true. Unless you were playing like an absolute monkey that's a horrible call. Like really bad.

[durron597]

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Uhhh. That's just not true. Unless you were playing like an absolute monkey that's a horrible call. Like really bad.

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I was.

[Isura]

Just call the river in hand 1. THere's a good chance your hand is good here, since he could have been semibluffing or trying to fold a Q with a smaller pair hand.

Hand 2, I would raise preflop. How much were you planning to call on the river if he bet? If you aren't calling a PSB, then I rather just raise the turn.

[durron597]

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Hand 2, I would raise preflop. How much were you planning to call on the river if he bet? If you aren't calling a PSB, then I rather just raise the turn.

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What's a PSB? I was calling any amount.

[r2p]

My thoughts (realjobu) was that Durron had a middle pair and was then trying to run me over as I am a relative unknown. As I play at lower levels ($10SNGs) it appears that with better players an all in at the turn or river appears to have an 90% probability it is made or nuts hand. Anyone have a view ?

[durron597]

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My thoughts (realjobu) was that Durron had a middle pair and was then trying to run me over as I am a relative unknown.

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I thought you might think this. Thus my line /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[durron597]

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My thoughts (realjobu) was that Durron had a middle pair and was then trying to run me over as I am a relative unknown.

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I thought you might think this. Thus my line /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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I just want to elaborate a little more. I thought you might think that, so I thought there was a chance you would pay me off with a worse hand. I was 99% sure you did not have a better hand... I put you on exactly what you had, a reverse dominated queen (I thought you might be worse then a queen with the turn raise, but when you bet 150 I was sure you had a "better" queen than me). So really I'm gambling on the times you decide to try to snap me off with one pair. Let's say I had made a nice value check-raise. Say to 450. Let's say you look me up for such a value checkraise 70% of the time. So 70% of the time I make an additional 300, for a profit of 210 chips. Now let's say you call the allin for 1000 more chips 30% of the time. Thus I make a net of 300 chips.

That's the advantage of overbetting for value... the times you do get called by worse hands, you make more chips in the long run, even if you don't get called as often. This is especially important in MTTs where you have to accumulate chips - in a 2+2 tournament especially it will be hard to pick up chips. That's why I usually play a lot sillier in a 2+2 tournament, because it's important to help me get more action. See Megabet's call of my resteal when I had AhKh. Of course, as was seen in NA vs. Euro, I'm not very good at it yet, but I'm working on it. And of course it backfires, when I raise with TT 5 handed and hyde comes over the top and because of my image I can't give him credit for JJ+/AK. Though the correct way to play that hand probably would have been to call preflop and play it with position postflop. But anyway, I hope I made some sense here.

Also note that once people realize your are overbetting for value in this way, your overbets will stop getting action. So then you have to start mixing in bluff overbets. See posts about Spirit Rock/Mahatma on the MHNL forum for details (this is why I lurk everywhere) /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[r2p]

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My thoughts (realjobu) was that Durron had a middle pair and was then trying to run me over as I am a relative unknown.

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I thought you might think this. Thus my line /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to elaborate a little more. I thought you might think that, so I thought there was a chance you would pay me off with a worse hand. I was 99% sure you did not have a better hand... I put you on exactly what you had, a reverse dominated queen (I thought you might be worse then a queen with the turn raise, but when you bet 150 I was sure you had a "better" queen than me). So really I'm gambling on the times you decide to try to snap me off with one pair. Let's say I had made a nice value check-raise. Say to 450. Let's say you look me up for such a value checkraise 70% of the time. So 70% of the time I make an additional 300, for a profit of 210 chips. Now let's say you call the allin for 1000 more chips 30% of the time. Thus I make a net of 300 chips.

That's the advantage of overbetting for value... the times you do get called by worse hands, you make more chips in the long run, even if you don't get called as often. This is especially important in MTTs where you have to accumulate chips - in a 2+2 tournament especially it will be hard to pick up chips. That's why I usually play a lot sillier in a 2+2 tournament, because it's important to help me get more action. See Megabet's call of my resteal when I had AhKh. Of course, as was seen in NA vs. Euro, I'm not very good at it yet, but I'm working on it. And of course it backfires, when I raise with TT 5 handed and hyde comes over the top and because of my image I can't give him credit for JJ+/AK. Though the correct way to play that hand probably would have been to call preflop and play it with position postflop. But anyway, I hope I made some sense here.

Also note that once people realize your are overbetting for value in this way, your overbets will stop getting action. So then you have to start mixing in bluff overbets. See posts about Spirit Rock/Mahatma on the MHNL forum for details (this is why I lurk everywhere) /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

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Got it. Thanks for posting the hand and the insight. More education of a fish !