Foxwoods 20/40: ATs [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

hobbsmann

11-02-2005, 08:31 PM

This hand took place about 3 hours into my night and up until this point I had won a total of 1 pot and was stuck a fair amount.

The second limper in this hand was kind of drunk at the time, but I get the impression that he knows what he is doing (so lets call him slightly too loose TAG). The preflop 3 bettor seemed to have a fairly narrow range of preflop raising hands and is best described as one of the decent older regulars.

UTG calls, UTG1 calls, I raise AT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, MP2 3-bets, all fold to UTG1 who calls, I call.

Flop (10 sb) A /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
check, check, bet, call, call (?)

Turn (8 bb) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
check, I bet (?)....

If this was HU I would have taken the line of c/c the flop, b/c the turn and c/f the river if the turn was raised or bet the river if the turn was called. Since this was 3 handed I wasn't too sure how my line should be adjusted. I think c/r'ing the flop is probably best, but I'm not sure....

W. Deranged

11-02-2005, 08:46 PM

I like this Hobbs.

Originally I was thinking you should check the turn here, but I think the 7 is a nice card to bet on as it'll slow down a nittish old-regular type who has a big A. I don't like the bet as much if you think he'll fold QQ or KK but continue to bet, from what I know of these types of players they're more likely to call a turn bet here with those hands than they are to bet with them. Since there's a flush draw on board (not a huge concern, but worth noting) and a third player in the pot (a huge concern, definitely worth noting), I really don't want this turn to check through.

So I like the bet. Very nice hand. I hope you intended to fold to a raise, and to bet-fold the river, particularly if it's three-handed.

Nick C

11-02-2005, 08:47 PM

Heads-up, I would check-call both the flop and turn. It's really unlikely that Villain has a flush draw, and if he doesn't, you're in a WA/WB situation.

If UTG+1 is decent, then I'm not liking it too much when he calls the flop, after calling two more back to him preflop. But he is also drunk, and maybe he's making a loose peel or is hoping his 88 is somehow good.

Anyway, on the turn, I think I'd check again. Then again, if by some chance you're ahead and the pre-flop 3-bettor now checks behind with his QQ and UTG+1 gets a free card with his flush draw, then that's not ideal. But I think there's a really good chance that you're not ahead, and UTG+1 isn't folding a flush draw anyway, so if you do end up giving a free card, it's not like it's a tragedy.

private joker

11-02-2005, 08:50 PM

I like this line. You don't let KK check through the turn, and you won't get raised very often. If you do get raised by a hand like AQ, you have outs to chop or win, plus the loose TAG will be charged with 2.

W. Deranged

11-02-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, I would check-call both the flop and turn. It's really unlikely that Villain has a flush draw, and if he doesn't, you're in a WA/WB situation.

If UTG+1 is decent, then I'm not liking it too much when he calls the flop, after calling two more back to him preflop. But he is also drunk, and maybe he's making a loose peel or is hoping his 88 is somehow good.

Anyway, on the turn, I think I'd check again. Then again, if by some chance you're ahead and the pre-flop 3-bettor now checks behind with his QQ and UTG+1 gets a free card with his flush draw, then that's not ideal. But I think there's a really good chance that you're not ahead, and UTG+1 isn't folding a flush draw anyway, so if you do end up giving a free card, it's not like it's a tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with this analysis, but I think this hand betrays an important feature of live mid-limit games.

These old guys are passive and nitty. They don't like to put in bets when there are obvious hands that might beat them. A guy with QQ or KK here might bet the flop but he's usually going to slow up on the turn. BUT, they also don't like getting pushed around by long-haired, rock-music-listenin', hot-shot, internet-playin', world-poker-tour-watchin', baseball-hat-wearin', red-bull-drinkin' young whippersnappers like Hobbs.

So, this guy'll probably call down with QQ or KK here and not bet it. So the wa/wb here concept varies a little. The third guy being in makes me want to bet more also.

Nick C

11-02-2005, 08:52 PM

I kind of want to know how drunk UTG+1 is.

I'm really worried he has us beat.

W. Deranged

11-02-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of want to know how drunk UTG+1 is.

I'm really worried he has us beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make the assumption he's had 4 Heinekens, 2 Jack and Cokes, and is currently sucking down Red Bull + Vodka #3.

hobbsmann

11-02-2005, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of want to know how drunk UTG+1 is.

I'm really worried he has us beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
He said something like 11 drinks after the hand.

W. Deranged

11-02-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I kind of want to know how drunk UTG+1 is.

I'm really worried he has us beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make the assumption he's had 4 Heinekens, 2 Jack and Cokes, and is currently sucking down Red Bull + Vodka #3.

[/ QUOTE ]

In DrunkTracker terms that makes him a 4/2/3.

hobbsmann

11-02-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of want to know how drunk UTG+1 is.

I'm really worried he has us beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm almost positive that he raises ATs+ and AJo+ preflop after a limper so I was not really worried about him having a better A.

flopmonster

11-02-2005, 09:05 PM

I would check call flop and turn and bet out river.

Nick C

11-02-2005, 09:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like this line. You don't let KK check through the turn, and you won't get raised very often. If you do get raised by a hand like AQ, you have outs to chop or win, plus the loose TAG will be charged with 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's not an easy fold to a raise. If MP1 raised and turned over AK, and then UTG+1 went away, the decision would be close.

But if we get raised on the turn, we don't have to call the river unimproved, so paying two bets now doesn't cost any more than calling the turn and bet-folding the river.

hobbsmann

11-02-2005, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, I would check-call both the flop and turn. It's really unlikely that Villain has a flush draw, and if he doesn't, you're in a WA/WB situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
HU in WA/WB situations where I hold an A I'm now under the opinion that the best line is to c/c, bet the turn with the intention of calling a turn raise and folding the river UI. The reason for this is that I feel KK/QQ/JJ are a lot less likely to continue betting with an A on board compared to QQ on a K high board. The reason I call a turn raise is to counter the free showdown play and thus the times my turn donk is raised AND villian bets the river than I am adequetely convinced I'm behind.

ZenMusician

11-02-2005, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and is currently sucking down Red Bull + Vodka #3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni Han Sa

Since when does FW carry Red Bull??! I always bring my own...

-ZEN

W. Deranged

11-02-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and is currently sucking down Red Bull + Vodka #3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni Han Sa

Since when does FW carry Red Bull??! I always bring my own...

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think they have it. It was a bit of artistic license.

Nick C

11-02-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, I would check-call both the flop and turn. It's really unlikely that Villain has a flush draw, and if he doesn't, you're in a WA/WB situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
HU in WA/WB situations where I hold an A I'm now under the opinion that the best line is to c/c, bet the turn with the intention of calling a turn raise and folding the river UI. The reason for this is that I feel KK/QQ/JJ are a lot less likely to continue betting with an A on board compared to QQ on a K high board. The reason I call a turn raise is to counter the free showdown play and thus the times my turn donk is raised AND villian bets the river than I am adequetely convinced I'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, okay. I don't see any glaring flaws in the line (unless Villain will dump a pocket pair to the turn donk when he would've invested a bet or two versus a different line).

jba

11-02-2005, 10:00 PM

Hobbs -- W. D

wow great posts, you two. I have to admit I read hobbs post before there were any replies, I hated the line and I didn't get it at all when I first saw it, but I can definitely picture the type of guy you are talking about now, and this makes a ton of sense.

jba

11-02-2005, 10:01 PM