An interesting spot

[brettbrettr]

online $15-30 game, I raise in MP with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif, laggy CO calls, loose, passive, extremely straightforward BB 3-bets, I cap, Lag calls, BB calls.

3 to the flop for 12.5 sbs: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

BB checks, I bet, Lag folds, BB raises.

Now, folding is out, but what do we think if our options here. If you want to call say why its better than raising, if you would. If you want to raise, please say why.

[hobbsmann]

Call. You will still have odds to draw to your guthot + tainted overs on the turn and there is a very strong chance your 3-bet will get capped.

[W. Deranged]

meh.

[Nick C]

I want to call.

I think we have an equity disadvantage, we have little if any folding equity, and BB may have a good enough hand that we're not getting a free card on the turn (unless he tries to checkraise again).

I don't know. I hardly ever make heads-up free-card raises anymore, and I don't see much in the way of other potential benefits, in this particular spot.

If my 3-bet were a cap instead, I might give the play a little more consideration, but I think I'd still decide against it.

[jba]

could it be as easy as:

call, because we are crushed??

I mean, he's got QQ+ here like all the time according to your read, he's not going to fold, and we need to catch. So I say wait to find out if we do catch before putting any more bets in than we have to.


(i feel like there's a catch here...)

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Call. You will still have odds to draw to your guthot + tainted overs on the turn and there is a very strong chance your 3-bet will get capped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think from a straightforward player a check-raise sometimes is actually not that aggressive a move; namely, bet-three-betting is more aggressive. Villain may check-raise because he doesn't have enough hand to bet-three-bet. I also think that there's a chance villain would call a flop three-bet and plan on check-raising the turn. Either way, I think that there's a pretty reasonable chance that this flop is not getting capped.

Even still, I find it hard to develop any major opinion about this hand. Everything seems to kind of balance out.

In general, my rule for free card situations like this is that you have to be right 2/3 of the time for them to be a good idea (because you pay 1 BB extra when you get capped and led into, and save .5 BB when you raise and get a free card). It all really comes down to what you think Mr. Straightforward will do.

[Yeknom58]

If he's extremely straightforward then he has exactly QQ, KK, or AA and you're behind. I guess the key is getting to showdown for as little money as possible. So here is how I see it..if you raise you probably only get KK to slowdown and AA/QQ probably makes you pay more to see the river so I like a call. Now if you think he might slowdown with AA if you 3 bet then I would raise.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, my rule for free card situations like this is that you have to be right 2/3 of the time for them to be a good idea (because you pay 1 BB extra when you get capped and led into, and save .5 BB when you raise and get a free card).


[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you cap and he bets you're calling the turn?

[Luv2DriveTT]

RAISE. He is straightforward..... he won't get out of line without a monster. Get a free turn card /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In general, my rule for free card situations like this is that you have to be right 2/3 of the time for them to be a good idea (because you pay 1 BB extra when you get capped and led into, and save .5 BB when you raise and get a free card).


[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you cap and he bets you're calling the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he caps and you call and he bets the turn, there will be 11 BB in the pot. Meaning you have to call just to hit the miracle J (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board... if it does, I think that swings it to a fold).

[Dopey]

I'll start this by saying I don't play alot of 15-30 online so my opinion may not have alot of merit.

I'm just calling, raising presents too much of a risk in my opinion. Your risking potetnial 1BB extra to save 1/2BB


(Edited to remove original math that was wrong say risking extra 2BB to save 1/2BB and the possibility of free card is probably better than I originally assessed, but still not enough for me to raise)

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In general, my rule for free card situations like this is that you have to be right 2/3 of the time for them to be a good idea (because you pay 1 BB extra when you get capped and led into, and save .5 BB when you raise and get a free card).


[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you cap and he bets you're calling the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he caps and you call and he bets the turn, there will be 11 BB in the pot. Meaning you have to call just to hit the miracle J (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board... if it does, I think that swings it to a fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this for a twist, what if the turn is the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif and the villain bets. That makes for a more interesting decision.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

PS: Will - AC this weekend if you are not going to Vegas.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

If he caps and you call and he bets the turn, there will be 11 BB in the pot. Meaning you have to call just to hit the miracle J (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board... if it does, I think that swings it to a fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

ARGGGGGRHRHHHHHH. This whole entire hand is wrong.

Here's how it went down:

I raised pre-flop, both called. [censored], I'm so sorry. This was all wrong.

There's 6.5 sbs in the pot. I bet, strightfoward passive BB check-raises. I ?

(Again, I'm sorry, this is just so, so wrong.)

[W. Deranged]

TT,

I'm goin' to Vegas! Never been before... can't wait. We definitely need to do AC sometime soon though.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If he caps and you call and he bets the turn, there will be 11 BB in the pot. Meaning you have to call just to hit the miracle J (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board... if it does, I think that swings it to a fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

ARGGGGGRHRHHHHHH. This whole entire hand is wrong.

Here's how it went down:

I raised pre-flop, both called. [censored], I'm so sorry. This was all wrong.

There's 6.5 sbs in the pot. I bet, strightfoward passive BB check-raises. I ?

(Again, I'm sorry, this is just so, so wrong.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I this case I like 3-betting A LOT more as you are much likely to pick up a free card as well as have your pair outs still being good.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If he caps and you call and he bets the turn, there will be 11 BB in the pot. Meaning you have to call just to hit the miracle J (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board... if it does, I think that swings it to a fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

ARGGGGGRHRHHHHHH. This whole entire hand is wrong.

Here's how it went down:

I raised pre-flop, both called. [censored], I'm so sorry. This was all wrong.

There's 6.5 sbs in the pot. I bet, strightfoward passive BB check-raises. I ?

(Again, I'm sorry, this is just so, so wrong.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yeah, then I'm three-bettin' so fast it'd make your head spin.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
You risk too much with it being capped and lead into on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what... sometimes it can get capped with Q6o, you are now a small underdog, I can live with that. A player of this type will often call with anything short of a set rather than raise because the board will scare him. Hero buys a free card more often than not.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, yeah, then I'm three-bettin' so fast it'd make your head spin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too.

I would just like to say that I was 100% confused by this hand. Its from a book, and the author recommends three-betting, as we've said. My problem was that I thought the pre-flop action was as I posted (where the BB three-bets) and so, in that scenario, I couldn't wrap my head around why the author recommended reraising the check-raise. Turns out I just read it wrong.

OMG this was easily the worst post ever. Apologies for clogging the board.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
TT,

I'm goin' to Vegas! Never been before... can't wait. We definitely need to do AC sometime soon though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will - u suck at AC, Bret will become my new bitch. Ray, Armond, and the crew will all be in NJ. I'll send your love, I expect daily reports.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Bret will become my new bitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're too old (and titless) for me. Sorry.

[Dopey]

Agreed, with a smaller pot 3-bet makes more sense than calling as you have the benefit of a possible free card and you aren't as committed to the pot if he caps & leads and you don't improve.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

raise. if he bets into you on the turn, call. then fold UI.

[Dopey]

TT,

I guess it depends on my read of BB if the action went as originally noted. I don't see a loose passive straight forward player 3-betting preflop and check-raising with a hand like Q6 which we are in much better shape against. I'd be suprised to see anything less than atleast being reverse -dominated on that flop given his passive nature. Given original hand action I'm putting his hand range at AA-TT, AK-ATs, AK-AQ, KQs after the flop c/r raise with AJs and JJ fairly unlikely and every other hand has us in really bad shape. I think the passive>loose so I give him some credit for a hand with a 3-bet, maybe a little too much credit at times though.

Given the revised preflop action and pot size, I agree 100% that the 3-bet is a much better play as BB hand range doesn't have us in as bad of shape as if he 3-bet preflop and thus the risk of cap/lead isn't as bad.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif