Pacific Poker increased the rake to $4.

Pacific Poker increased their max rake to $4 per pot. They just came out with a great revenue report too. It is a [censored] joke. Boycott this site until they lower back to $3. Hell, it should be a $1.

[DuggleBogey]

This would be like cutting my nose off to spite my face...

[Mike Haven]

It's actually up to $5 in the high limit games.

And you'll like the particularly friendly clause: "Additional rake of 1¢ will be taken for every additional 20¢ between consecutive pot sizes."

[lefty rosen]

So now they want to charge live rake fees without the overhead? What idiot is going to play on that site? Oh yeah they are growing all the time, boy I which I could bottle what they are selling......... /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Synergistic Explosions]

So which site will be the first to go to $6 now?

[lefty rosen]

I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[goodguy_1]

easily the top 3 worst run online pokerrooms of all time. They had the leverage to do great things as one of the biggest online casinos and they been blowin it for the last 4 years-they've got the crappiest software and the most retarded managemnet in the bizness right now.

-now they are going to raise the rake.

If they had made a concerted effort to really focus on poker and create a decent software platform they could have easily been a top 3 room. They pissed away a huge oppurtunity and they still just dont get it.

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, they are not defying the laws of economics.

Baaah, Baaah, people are sheep. Did you stop driving your car when gas in the US jumped to $3.50 a gallon?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, they are not defying the laws of economics.

Baaah, Baaah, people are sheep. Did you stop driving your car when gas in the US jumped to $3.50 a gallon?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

no, but if there were 50 other gas stations selling it for $2.50 I would probably buy from them.

[TylerD]

More worryingly, which site is going to be next?

[lefty rosen]

Yes I did(just cut back my driving to the bare minimum), but I live in a big city with good PT and I don't need to drive to work.......

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...I live in a big city with good PT and I don't need to drive to work.......

[/ QUOTE ]

You have PokerTracker for your car? What's your Voluntarily Put the Petal To The Medal percentage? (a.k.a. VPPM)

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, they are not defying the laws of economics.

Baaah, Baaah, people are sheep. Did you stop driving your car when gas in the US jumped to $3.50 a gallon?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

no, but if there were 50 other gas stations selling it for $2.50 I would probably buy from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do fish look at a room's website for the rake schedule? Do they look in their Poker Tracker software for total rake paid (wait, no PT)?

Probably 90% of online players have no clue of the real effect of the rake. I'm sure many of them are so desensitized to seeing $2 or $3 going up next to the dealer that they don't even think of what their share of this represents.

So it's up to 5 bucks at the higher limits. If you play those limits, you might as well hit the B&M. Why don't they have a tip the dealer, too. Then it would be the same since you can't play more than one table.

http://www.pacificpoker.com/en/online-poker-rules/betting-limits--2,3.htm#Rake

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]

Probably 90% of online players have no clue of the real effect of the rake. I'm sure many of them are so desensitized to seeing $2 or $3 going up next to the dealer that they don't even think of what their share of this represents.

[/ QUOTE ]

People keep on saying this whenever rake increases are discussed, but in reality the transparency of the fee doesn't matter a great deal in the long run. The rake still affects the bottom line of the poor players just as much as it matters to the good players. The poor players may not notice it in their pokertracker database, but they will sure notice it when then begin to lose their weekly/monthly/whatever deposit much more quickly.

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Probably 90% of online players have no clue of the real effect of the rake. I'm sure many of them are so desensitized to seeing $2 or $3 going up next to the dealer that they don't even think of what their share of this represents.

[/ QUOTE ]

People keep on saying this whenever rake increases are discussed, but in reality the transparency of the fee doesn't matter a great deal in the long run. The rake still affects the bottom line of the poor players just as much as it matters to the good players. The poor players may not notice it in their pokertracker database, but they will sure notice it when then begin to lose their weekly/monthly/whatever deposit much more quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

They may or may not notice it. They'll notice they're losing faster, but they could just as easily think they're unlucky or it's rigged even more ( /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I think part of the problem is that if we get the really bad players to start thinking about rake, then maybe they'll start thinking about some other things.

[lefty rosen]

You still will get double the hands in, no gas and the waiting time will be less(also no 5 dollar sandwiches). But even Pacific games are now harder than the same limit live....... /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, they are not defying the laws of economics.

Baaah, Baaah, people are sheep. Did you stop driving your car when gas in the US jumped to $3.50 a gallon?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Online poker is an inelastic good?

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]


They may or may not notice it. They'll notice they're losing faster, but they could just as easily think they're unlucky or it's rigged even more

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, in the short run the losses will be attributed to bad luck or such.

In the long run, however, if the poor players consistently loose at a higher rate than at other card rooms there will be a migration of poor players to rooms with a lower rake, just as when there was a migration of good players away from partpoker.com to skins that offered rakeback.

A high rake harms the ability of a card room to attract and maintain a base of players regardless of skill level.

[lefty rosen]

I don't think so you don't need a government license to start up a site. You just need capital and pockets to cover your site when it's small and has more props/bonus hustlers then dumping donkeys.........

[smb394]

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They may or may not notice it. They'll notice they're losing faster, but they could just as easily think they're unlucky or it's rigged even more

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, in the short run the losses will be attributed to bad luck or such.

In the long run, however, if the poor players consistently loose at a higher rate than at other card rooms there will be a migration of poor players to rooms with a lower rake, just as when there was a migration of good players away from partpoker.com to skins that offered rakeback.

A high rake harms the ability of a card room to attract and maintain a base of players regardless of skill level.

[/ QUOTE ]

But will they know that it's specifically the rake increases that are killing them? Might they think they've gotten really bad cards for awhile or they're just not any good?

I agree with you in principle, but I do not know how to measure the practical knowledge of this large segment of the online playing population. Not to mention that inertia is always easy.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe both live and online that when the rake increases the quality of the good sold increases. I mean it drives out some marginal winners that now lose because of the increase in rake making it more enjoyable for both the losing players and the highly skilled players who no longer have to compete against the marginal winners. I know in every market I have seen the higher the rake the better the game.

[primetime32]

Pacific Poker is funny, but i think i understand their logic. They figure that if someone is dumb to actually play at their site when there are soo many other better sites, they are probably dumb enough to not mind the extra rake.

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]

But will they know that it's specifically the rake increases that are killing them? Might they think they've gotten really bad cards for awhile or they're just not any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aggregate long term result it doesn't really matter what individuals think. Some may think they are luckier at the other site. Other may think they improved their play after switching sites. It doesn't really matter; what matters is that as a group they will loose less money. The flow of players, however, will go to the site (all other things being equal) at which they tend to win more (or loose less). And that means the site with the lower rake.

If you look at fish as an aggregate group of players rather than a large number of individuals it will help you see my point.

[Mike Haven]

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A high rake harms the ability of a card room to attract and maintain a base of players regardless of skill level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pacific, or 888, runs a massive advertising programme all the time in the UK. They sponsor TV programmes and televised sporting events, and they advertise in magazines and newspapers. They specialise in getting newbies to play there, and their marketing department is very successful in this regard.

I just downloaded the new software, (by the way, their Support is so bad they don't auto-update and nor do they tell you when new software is available - you simply have to find out for yourself, somehow or other), and while it downloads there is onscreen spiel to tell you what excitement lies ahead of you. It is very good spiel, in fact. (Unfortunately, most of it is not true - for instance, they boast about how their Support Staff are there for you 24 hours per day. They might well be there, but they don't answer your e-mails for at least a day or two, in my experience.)

They seem to be an anomaly, to me. Their aggressive marketing brings in thousands of punters through the front door, while their useless Support lets almost as many out the back door to go and find better places, (and that means, anywhere else), to play, after a few weeks of hell drives even a newbie insane.

I would bet if there was a survey done of all players on the site at any time you would find that virtually all of them could be classed as newbies playing on their first site.

If ever one day the Marketing Team meets the Support and Development Teams they could very quickly turn the site into an absolutely awesome moneymaking machine, simply by spending a few dollars on upgrading the archaic software. They are making big money at the moment, but there doesn't seem to be a thinking head behind the sleeping monster to realise that they are good at the hardest part - bringing the new punters in - but totally crap at the easy part - looking after people by providing a pleasant playing experience once they have taken that first big step of becoming their customers.

[Mike Haven]

[ QUOTE ]
they boast about how their Support Staff are there for you 24 hours per day. They might well be there, but they don't answer your e-mails for at least a day or two, in my experience

[/ QUOTE ]

When I read critical posts of sites here I often send e-mails to their Support Departments to see if they wish to comment.

For interest, I sent a copy of my post above to Pacific immediately after I wrote it.

Their reply was:

"Dear Chuck,

Thank you for choosing Pacific Poker.

Chuck, I have forwarded your e-mail to our Forum Department for thier attention.

You should expect a response in the next 48/72 hours.

Chuck, thank you for being our member and for the confidence you have placed in us. Please contact us whenever we can be of further service.

Kind regards,

Member Support Representative
Pacific Poker"

[billyjex]

Man, this is bad. I had about 4k in Pacific to play their ultra fishy high limit games that were good to play despite high rake/no rakeback and then this.. I'm definetely taking it all out.

There needs to be an educate the casual player/fish about the rake campaign. The trend being set lately isn't good.

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I just downloaded the new software,

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn´t know there are new software /images/graemlins/smile.gif i'll check the website...

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
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I always thought with increased competition the rake would drop? Where are the posters that have an economics degree, please tell us how Pacific Poker(and other sites) is defying the laws of economics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, they are not defying the laws of economics.

Baaah, Baaah, people are sheep. Did you stop driving your car when gas in the US jumped to $3.50 a gallon?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

no, but if there were 50 other gas stations selling it for $2.50 I would probably buy from them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the point is that most recreational players don't know anything about this. That is they don't even bother to look at the gas prices. Dogmeat is dead on here. Few poker players think about rake much. Most are ignorant of the rate of rake and how it affects how much they win. Some don't even know what rake is!

"Laws" of economics make assumptions of fully informed actors that make optimal decisions. Most poker players are not anywhere near fully informed and they are obviously not optimal decision makers. Ironically the people we want to play against most are at places like Pacific, where the rake is highest (and hence we don't want to play there).