Top pair and Plenty 'O Action

[Clarkmeister]

Good Mirage 10-20 game.

2 limpers to me in the CO with KhJh and I raise it. Blinds come along and 5 see the flop for 2 bets each.

Flop: Jd Th 6d. SB checks, reasonably aggressive but not maniacal BB bets, 2 limpers call, I raise. Loose but thinking SB now checkraise-3 bets. BB looks at the limpers then 4 bets quickly. Limpers fold. I 5 bet (a cap) and both call. 3 to the turn for 13.5BBs

Turn: [Jd Th 6d] 8s. Checked to me, I bet, both call.

River: [Jd Th 6d 8s] 5c. Checked to me, I check.

Comments especially on my flop play, but also on the turn bet and the river check are all appreciated. I think all 3 postflop streets are at least somewhat debatable.

[Billy LTL]

Just a quickie here. No time for anything more.

I think five betting is okay here because you're looking at another possible raise anyway if you don't do it. Plus you're putting thoughts of AA or a set in their heads, and you might need the ability to check on a later street. Which, it turns out, you did.

Turn bet? Fine. No checkraise? Double fine. I don't think this one is too debatable. You're still top pair, you've shown enormous strength so a checkraise here would pretty much tell you what's what.

River check? Fine, I think. I've been having problems recently on the river myself so I'm more interested in listening to others than seeing myself spout off.

Billy

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I really don't have a lot of debate for the turn and river. The flop I think was overplayed (possibly by everyone, not just you).

I won't be surprised if you lost to AJ.

al

[bigfishead]

I tend to think this may not have held up, 2 pr flop or sumtin, but I have no problem with your play any street.
Especially the turn. Betting the turn w/o another checkraise gives you river to improve since you must call
anyways. Now this is all based upon your description of the players. They may be drawing or trying to blow you off. They obviously have that ability.

Had you said anyone was a "weak-tight" I muck this in a second on the flop.

[ML4L]

On the flop, I think your initial raise is clearly a good play. When SB 3-bets, the first two hands that would come to my mind are JT or a big draw, such as KdQd. I wouldn't be quick to put him on a set, because he is going to knock out potential customers. I think that if he had a set and wanted to thin the field because of all of the draws on the board, he would have led out. I'm having a little more trouble putting BB on a hand. AJ or KJ would be my tentative read, but a set is a possibility. If these players are not the type to muck top pair if the action stays heavy, I might shut down here. But, if these are players that you can get to fold a hand or the types that would push AdTd or KQo, the pot is big enough that taking a stab at winning without a showdown isn't a terrible play.

Turn: The bet is obligatory after the flop cap. The good news is that I think JT or a set would check-raise you. So, you might be against KdQd AND AdTd, or similar hands, although if either holds AJ, they would be too terrified to check-raise.

River: I hate the check. You've gone to such lengths to represent a big hand up until now. It was highly unlikely that either would fold to your flop 5-bet or your turn bet. The river is when one of those guys might give that AJ or KJ a hard look and muck it. The only way that you could win on the check would be if both guys were drawing. With the pot that big, I would bet the river as a pure bluff, knowing that I am almost certainly beat if called.

So, to summarize, I would either fold to the 4-bet on the flop (or MAYBE take a look at the turn card) OR bet hard the whole way. I think that either is fine, but that mixing the two is a mistake. Hope they showed 4-flushes and that you took it down...

ML4L

[pufferfish]

I hope you don’t mind a “Small Stakes” perspective.

Flop: I 5 bet (a cap) and both call. 3 to the turn for 13.5BBs

Wow, not the kind of flop action I’m used to and therefore hard to derive meaning from it. Once its two bets back to you, I think you are in a raise/fold situation.

Raise (pros) because a) you have a made hand with a good kicker, b) there are straight and flush draws on the board, c) you have a back-door flush draw of your own, d) you have position and e) you are you - /forums/images/icons/wink.gif.

Raise (cons) because you have so few outs (you probably don’t want to hit your kicker) your hand is probably going to have to win as is. What is the likelihood that both of your opponents are either on draws (including overcards) or overplaying lower pairs?

Turn: Checked to me, I bet, both call.

Wow. Things sure slowed down.

I like the bet because a) well, I don’t want to be giving out a free card to draws and overcards and b) if someone is going to check-raise, let’s get it over with. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

River: Checked to me, I check.

The 5 seems like a blank.

If I thought a bet would get a better hand to fold, then I would bet. I’m not all that keen on seeing a showdown.

TC,
pf

[elysium]

hi clark
wow; well, clark it sounds like your opponents are reasonable hmmmm.

ok, on the flop, you know that your raise won't fold out anyone, but perhaps you are raising because you think the SB will check-raise and get the folds you need here, but that won't happen. your raise isn't to get more money in the pot....clark, i don't follow the flop raise. it looks like a clear flop call to me. also, raising perturbs the bettor on your right. you need to preserve, not perturb his turn bet. maybe raising that bet will get this thing HU.

had you called only on the flop, you can confidently fold when it comes back 2 bets to you.

you cap for the free-card, but don't accept it when it's checked to you. furthermore, you will be check-raised in this spot 9 out of 10 times. and who did i learn that from? you. clark you taught me to check it behind everytime in this spot, unless you have a powerhouse. based on your own advice, bad turn bet by you.

by the way, getting back a little to the dan hanson days, (wish he were still posting) and no, i wasn't around then but i really enjoyed his threads in archives, he says that you should bet for value here, not take the free-card. but here is an area where clark, you actually can raise on the flop for a free-card; when you have a hand that can improve (ins.str. draw and 3 to a flush with top pair) but are against heavy action that traps you. in this spot, if you cap it from LP, you will often get checked to not because your opponents fear your bet, but because they are welcoming it. here clark, on the turn, your opponents are welcoming your bet. clark, if the action stopped right now, on the turn just before you bet, i'd say, 'look at the meister. he has induced a set or two pair to set him up for a check-raise! but it's a terrific free-card play.'

you taught me what to do in this situation so, i'm not going to tell you how awful your turn bet is.


i can't think of a hand with that kind of turn action that requires a check-down on the river with a king kicker. you should almost always bet when these opponents check to you after check-calling. and clark, in your whole life, you can probably count the number of times that you checked this down on one hand. but you check it down because after you bet the turn, you realized your mistake, and don't want to make the same mistake again. the risk of the check-raise on the river is less, but the threat of it was so great on the turn, that the consciousness of the error in betting the turn is spilling over onto the river and keeping you from betting. had you not bet the turn, you would have gotten this river rag, been bet into and quickly folded. it cost you not one big bet, but two because the flop cap was for the free-card, even if you were betting for value. and the only move to make on the flop is to go for the free-card, or fold.

and clark, i'll take the heat for the free-card play. no one has ever heard of capping the flop to induce your opponents to go for a check-raise of you in last position; AT WHICH TIME YOU CHECK IT DOWN!! but i'm naming it 'the meister'.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Flop: Jd Th 6d. SB checks, reasonably aggressive but not maniacal BB bets, 2 limpers call, I raise. Loose but thinking SB now checkraise-3 bets. BB looks at the limpers then 4 bets quickly."

This is the big blind's one and only chance to get you to fold two overcards because he can't count on the SB to bet out on the turn. If he's on the ball, and if he thinks the SB would checkraise a good draw, then his fourbet on the flop could be done with as little as weak top pair, maybe even 10-x of diamonds. If everyone folds, now he heads up in position with a hand. That's worth a fourbet. And that's why no way I'm folding your KJ for two more bets when it gets back to me. And we all know calling sucks, so I love, and I mean love, your fivebet on the flop. That bet, combined with your preflop raise, says hey, are you guys convinced yet? I sure would be. I'd put you on an overpair minimum, more likely a set. GREAT misdirection play at the cost of two thin chips.

"Turn: [Jd Th 6d] 8s. Checked to me, I bet, both call."

Wonderful situation to think through. At the table, I dunno, I'm just as likely to check-behind as to bet. It would depend on, I don't know what. But I'd have to be at the table to know what I'd do. I like your bet. No fear. Very nice. If they can checkraise you on the turn after all the statements you've made, you're probably drawing dead.

"River: [Jd Th 6d 8s] 5c. Checked to me, I check."

I'd assume you've only got one man to beat. Somebody missed a draw and will fold if you bet, most likely the SB. Will the BB back all the way down with AJ and go for a cheapest possible showdown after your five-bet on the flop? I suspect so. I'm guessing he has AJ, KJ, or QJ. That would make your river-bet a 50-50. Except it's not because there's always a change of total misreads, and there's the button bonus of a checked river, that you don't have to show your hand unless you are tipping too.

Ni Han.

Tommy

[mike l.]

"Loose but thinking SB now checkraise-3 bets. BB looks at the limpers then 4 bets quickly."

youre probably beat but pots getting pretty big now so i guess playing it the way you did the rest of the way is okay.

[Clarkmeister]

ML,

Good post. You echoed many of the things that were going through my head at the time.

On the flop, ..... I'm having a little more trouble putting BB on a hand. AJ or KJ would be my tentative read, but a set is a possibility"

I thought so too until he glanced and 4-bet. I couldn't envision a set wanting to put 3-bet pressure on the limpers (both of whom were loose). So I changed my read to a vulnerable hand, basically J-anything. SB was the hand that gave me problems. I could see him with either a set or a monster draw, or various hands in between.


"Turn: The bet is obligatory after the flop cap."

I'm not so sure of that. I think it is given the turn card, but if I picked up a draw (a heart of a queen), I would likely have checked behind. Frankly, when I capped the flop, I was unsure if I was doing so as the best hand or to buy a free turn.

"River: I hate the check. You've gone to such lengths to represent a big hand up until now. It was highly unlikely that either would fold to your flop 5-bet or your turn bet. The river is when one of those guys might give that AJ or KJ a hard look and muck it. The only way that you could win on the check would be if both guys were drawing. With the pot that big, I would bet the river as a pure bluff, knowing that I am almost certainly beat if called."

Well thought out. I considered the possibility of getting a better hand to fold, but the pot was so large, I just thought it fairly improbable. But that same logic dicatetes that several worse hands could call also.

"So, to summarize, I would either fold to the 4-bet on the flop (or MAYBE take a look at the turn card) OR bet hard the whole way. I think that either is fine, but that mixing the two is a mistake."

I think this was my initial thoughts as I drove home. But in the end, I think the pot size dictated that folding on the flop was a mistake (its a huge mistake against anything but a set).

[Clarkmeister]

Man, your thought process on this is almost exactly what mine was during the hand as it progressed.

"This is the big blind's one and only chance to get you to fold two overcards because he can't count on the SB to bet out on the turn. If he's on the ball, and if he thinks the SB would checkraise a good draw, then his fourbet on the flop could be done with as little as weak top pair, maybe even 10-x of diamonds."

This was my thought exactly, especially once he looked at the limpers and decided he must make them pay 3 more cold. Sure smells like a highly vulnerable hand to me, and I'm ahead of most highly vulnerable hands. Thats when I decided, right there, that I had to cap and take my chances that the SB on a draw and not a set.

"I'd put you on an overpair minimum, more likely a set. GREAT misdirection play at the cost of two thin chips."

Yeah, after I bet the turn, they looked scared. But I'm getting ahead of myself.


"Wonderful situation to think through. At the table, I dunno, I'm just as likely to check-behind as to bet. It would depend on, I don't know what. But I'd have to be at the table to know what I'd do."

I wasn't sure at all if I was betting or checking when I capped. As it turns out, I think I would have checked if I had picked up a queen (for open ended) or a non-ace flush draw. I'd bet anything else simply because if I get checkraised, especially by the SB, then I am likely drawing dead. So in the heat of battle, when I wasn't sure what I was going to do, I fell back on fundamentals, namely in this case the S&M bet with no outs, check with outs philosophy.

" I like your bet. No fear. Very nice. If they can checkraise you on the turn after all the statements you've made, you're probably drawing dead."

Agreed.

"I'd assume you've only got one man to beat. Somebody missed a draw and will fold if you bet, most likely the SB. Will the BB back all the way down with AJ and go for a cheapest possible showdown after your five-bet on the flop? I suspect so. I'm guessing he has AJ, KJ, or QJ. That would make your river-bet a 50-50."

This is what I was thinking at the time.

" Except it's not because there's always a change of total misreads, "

Right. And I think this is key. I've shown *so much* strength that I am fairly certain that even top two might have backed down here.

There's the button bonus of a checked river, that you don't have to show your hand unless you are tipping too."

This is exactly what happened.

On the river, I checked, and I could *feel* the whole table looking at me in total puzzlement, since I obviously had a set, or AA at a minimum. I sat there and stared at the pot and waited. BB sheepishly turned over J9o finally for top pair, no kicker. SB finally turned over 8d5d for a flopped flush draw, with running turn and river 2-pair to take it down. I silently mucked and let them all assume AA. SB even looked at me and apologized, lol.

I still think that river bet is dang close. I can see better hands folding and worse hands calling.

[Clarkmeister]

Elysium,

As I posted in the other responses, in hindsight I think this is a good example of betting with no outs and checking with outs.

I think I agree with your river analysis. Its pretty spot on.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I silently mucked and let them all assume AA. SB even looked at me and apologized, lol."

a-w-e-s-o-m-e

[ML4L]

Hey Clark,

A couple more thoughts on the hand...

1) If I were BB, I would 4-bet my set. I'm a big believer in doing whatever it takes to win the pot once it gets to a certain size. With so many draws possible off of that flop, I want to narrow the field as much as possible. Open-enders and flush draws will still come, but a 4-bet helps to protect against gutshots and backdoor hearts (or, maybe the backdoor hearts would 5-bet me /forums/images/icons/smile.gif ).

2) I didn't even notice the backdoor hearts when I first read the post. Now I like your flop play even more (I would not fold here), and I agree that you can check the turn if you pick up outs.

ML4L

[David Sklansky]

In the games I play in this would be close to a fold on the flop. It would be a fold with no three flush.