Requested Post - 88 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

QTip

11-02-2005, 01:42 PM

A poster was in this hand and wanted to hear discussion on it.

I don't have many hands on MP2, but at the time, he was about 30/25/2

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (28.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 33.75 BB

soko

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

If he has pocket kings then what do you expect? he hit a longshot, other than that you're only losing to a made straight on the flop where not only can you not expect anyone to have that ridiculous of a hand, you have outs to fill up.

I am expecting to be best at the showdown an overwhelming amount of the time here. a set is a MONSTER hand on this board.

EDIT: He could also have 99 this is true, but agian, you are going to lose SO much money not betting for value with your sets if you think you're beat by an overset every time you have an underset.

toss

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

At least you didn't get checkraised PF.

QTip

11-02-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At least you didn't get checkraised PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lost to 99 btw. I honestly though 67s after the turn cap. I thought 99 of course, but thought he would have raised it PF.

Anyway...the other poster was most interested in my lrr PF.

thejameser

11-02-2005, 01:56 PM

I normally raise 88 preflop(the first time; heh, nice LRR). MP2 catches my attention, his pf hand range could be wide given the pf limp, but he is somewhat LAG so he could be overplaying a smaller set, but a hand like 67 sooted is in his range maybe. Someone overplayed their hand here.

Dagger78

11-02-2005, 01:56 PM

I would like to hear some comment on the pre-flop limp-RR.

I was the BB in this hand, and Q knows my rasing range here and it's typical of most 2+2ers.

Is the pre-flop limp-RR for set value only? comment would be appreciated.

Chris Daddy Cool

11-02-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has pocket kings then what do you expect? he hit a longshot, other than that you're only losing to a made straight on the flop where not only can you not expect anyone to have that ridiculous of a hand, you have outs to fill up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? how does mp2 here have KK here?

[ QUOTE ]
I am expecting to be best at the showdown an overwhelming amount of the time here. a set is a MONSTER hand on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd still see a showdown, but i wouldn't expect to be good an "overwhelming amount of the time here." i'd really expect to be shown 76 here a lot.

thejameser

11-02-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At least you didn't get checkraised PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lost to 99 btw. I honestly though 67s after the turn cap. I thought 99 of course, but thought he would have raised it PF.

Anyway...the other poster was most interested in my lrr PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought a 20 would raise this pf as well so i discounted it somewhat.

SL__72

11-02-2005, 02:03 PM

Congrats to MP2 for almost pulling off the check/raise/cap on every street. He still checkraised every street which is pretty awesome.

QTip

11-02-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the first time

[/ QUOTE ]

I much prefer a limp here....not that I never raise 66+ EP...

QTip

11-02-2005, 02:06 PM

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Congrats to MP2 for almost pulling off the check/raise/cap on every street. He still checkraised every street which is pretty awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

His c/r on the river ranks as one of the worst plays I've seen.

Entity

11-02-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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Congrats to MP2 for almost pulling off the check/raise/cap on every street. He still checkraised every street which is pretty awesome.

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His c/r on the river ranks as one of the worst plays I've seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exaggerate much?

I don't like your LRR much either. It's got some value but the value is diminshed somewhat by tying yourself to the pot. It's not like you really need to tie other people to the pot too much in a game of this texture either. Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

Rob

QTip

11-02-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

correct away

Entity

11-02-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

correct away

[/ QUOTE ]

With regards to preflop, once you LRR, you're not just playing for flop value. In addition, 88 isn't a "no set no bet" hand and you're probably significantly undervaluing it if you think that it is. You've got some room for flexibility with how you play 88 postflop but in a larger pot, a lot of that room for flexibility goes away, since no one is folding gutshots, overs, etc. So you change the way the hand plays out postflop unless you flop a set. In addition, you've put yourself in a position where you're seeing the turn at the least a good portion of the time, especially when there are a lot of flops where you "might" be good but you're not sure, but that "not sure" is subsidized by the pot you bloated.

With regards to his river play, can you name any hand that you 3-bet the turn with and call his cap that you don't value bet on the river? I think a bet-3bet is ideal given his hand, but going for a bet-3bet is a bit too hopeful since you will bet a lot more hands than you raise on that river, especially given the fact that he can occasionally trap the straggler for one more bet on the river than if he attempted a bet-3bet.

Rob

Forbillz

11-02-2005, 02:52 PM

I don't particularly care for the LRR with 3 callers between you and BB. I do not consider 88 a hand that is guaranteed a fold if you don't hit, and with 3 callers between BB and your 3-bet, you're (almost) guaranteed tha tthe pot is a minimum of a 5-way pot. I'd prefer the move if you were either UTG or UTG+1, as you have at least a "chance" of narrowing the field enough to allow 88 to have a snowball's chance of making itself best hand UI.

QTip

11-02-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

correct away

[/ QUOTE ]

With regards to preflop, once you LRR, you're not just playing for flop value. In addition, 88 isn't a "no set no bet" hand and you're probably significantly undervaluing it if you think that it is. You've got some room for flexibility with how you play 88 postflop but in a larger pot, a lot of that room for flexibility goes away, since no one is folding gutshots, overs, etc. So you change the way the hand plays out postflop unless you flop a set. In addition, you've put yourself in a position where you're seeing the turn at the least a good portion of the time, especially when there are a lot of flops where you "might" be good but you're not sure, but that "not sure" is subsidized by the pot you bloated.

With regards to his river play, can you name any hand that you 3-bet the turn with and call his cap that you don't value bet on the river? I think a bet-3bet is ideal given his hand, but going for a bet-3bet is a bit too hopeful since you will bet a lot more hands than you raise on that river, especially given the fact that he can occasionally trap the straggler for one more bet on the river than if he attempted a bet-3bet.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent explanation. I just spoke with a friend who had the same thoughts.

I'm fighting a 300 bb downswing right now, and I don't think I have my head screwed on straight.

El Ishmael

11-02-2005, 03:22 PM

Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

thejameser

11-02-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

QTip

11-02-2005, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's why El Ishmael is saying perhaps the play is better with 44 than it is with 88..even though it still might not be right.

Also, I do feel that the raw showdown value of 88 in a 7 way pot is not that high...perhaps I'm wrong in this thinking.

Forbillz

11-02-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's why El Ishmael is saying perhaps the play is better with 44 than it is with 88..even though it still might not be right.

Also, I do feel that the raw showdown value of 88 in a 7 way pot is not that high...perhaps I'm wrong in this thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that great. That's why I mentioned I felt your play w/ 88 was better from UTG or UTG+1, b/c you at least have a chance of only continuing in a 3-4 way pot.

thejameser

11-02-2005, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's why El Ishmael is saying perhaps the play is better with 44 than it is with 88..even though it still might not be right.

Also, I do feel that the raw showdown value of 88 in a 7 way pot is not that high...perhaps I'm wrong in this thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

to bloat the pot to make it proper to draw to a set? slightly askew of proper strategy, but i see what he was asking now. and also, as far as being in a 7 way pot, that is why i would have raised preflop, ESPECIALLY with tight or predictable players behind me to act...to limit the field and improve your chances. i show signficant profit playing 88 to showdown without catching a set.

slavic

11-02-2005, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok let's chat about the preflop play. Why do we make a raise with a small pair with many limpers? Well two reasons, often we are getting a fair price to do so, though not a large advantage. Often it is just revenue nuetral, some times a bit of a dog, but what it does is bloat the pot a bit such that if you hit your set others will call even though they do not have the odds to do so, because you have a set. According to the theory of poker, that is a "good thing"(tm).

So what if I rebloat the darn thing here? Well now you have become a victim of your own design, the pot is so large on the flop that you have to see another card on the turn, and sometimes on the river drawing to a razor thin edge.

So do we need to do this, sometimes, but here it is likely that several of the players will call anyway if you flop a set. Well if that is the case you actually gain more by not raising because it increases the size of their postflop mistake. It all depends on the players.

Of special note however, raising is fun and getting extra bets in on revenue neutral holdings can add a bit of flair to your game. That's not a bad thing, however this situation is a pot size manipulation question and not so much a "how to add flair" question.

11-02-2005, 04:38 PM

Does anyone consider 55 a possibility? I think thats the one hand you do beat at the river.