Beginners first hand post

The game is .5/1 LHE at Pacific. The table is loose passive
Hero: MP2 with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP1 just sat down and brings in BB
UTG fold, UTG+1 fold, UTG+2 call, MP1 chek, Hero call,MP3 fold,CO fold,Botton fold,SB call, BB check
5 players left
Flop
K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB check, BB Bet, UTG+1 fold,MP1 call, Hero ?

[deception5]

Raise.

[car ramrod]

raises

[Deamon2]

you should definitely raise here. there aren't many turn cards that hurt your equity, and you probably have the best hand

[bozlax]

Hero raises for value. Since there was no preflop raise, you're not seeing AK or KQ, here. However, there's a flush draw on the board, and I don't want to let them see a cheap turn.

The argument could be made to wait for the turn to raise, as a /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the turn would severely swing your equity, but I prefer to get the money in while you're sure you're ahead.

Edit: by the way, nice post, OP. You formatted it well, and you put in what information you had. Well done.

[LSUfan1]

[ QUOTE ]
The game is .5/1 LHE at Pacific. The table is loose passive
Hero: MP2 with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP1 just sat down and brings in BB
UTG fold, UTG+1 fold, UTG+2 call, MP1 chek, Hero call,MP3 fold,CO fold,Botton fold,SB call, BB check
5 players left
Flop
K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB check, BB Bet, UTG+1 fold,MP1 call, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to raise in this position, because the range of hands you can put BB on here is still huge. He could be pushing 2nd pair to see where he is at, or any number of other hands.

You say the table is loose/passive, but do you have any reads on BB in particular? Unless you have a solid read that says BB is not going to make this play, you have to raise.

[sean c]

I would have raised pre flop also with so much posted money in the pot, the possiblity of buying the button and to get this as short handed as possible.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised pre flop also with so much posted money in the pot, the possiblity of buying the button and to get this as short handed as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was one poster. That's really not that much more than a normal hand. Plus you've got a limper who'll stay in for one more, and the poster who'll throw in one more (since he was loose enough to post in MP1). If you raise, otoh, the pot actually does start looking big to the players behind you, so I think a raise might actually make the CO and Button start thinking about staying in instead of getting out. Even if it buys the button, you're only likely to drive out SB, so you're, at best, only getting it down to 3 opponents, and you've bloated the pot with an easily dominated hand.

Preflop raise = not g00t, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
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I would have raised pre flop also with so much posted money in the pot, the possiblity of buying the button and to get this as short handed as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was one poster. That's really not that much more than a normal hand. Plus you've got a limper who'll stay in for one more, and the poster who'll throw in one more (since he was loose enough to post in MP1). If you raise, otoh, the pot actually does start looking big to the players behind you, so I think a raise might actually make the CO and Button start thinking about staying in instead of getting out. Even if it buys the button, you're only likely to drive out SB, so you're, at best, only getting it down to 3 opponents, and you've bloated the pot with an easily dominated hand.

Preflop raise = not g00t, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont think there is any equity edge here considering one of the hands your against is random?

not that im suggesting there is, but i think arguments could be made for a raise or a call.

Thank you for your fast replys. When I read my post it also seemed clear to me that I should have raised, but i did yust call.

[sean c]

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[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised pre flop also with so much posted money in the pot, the possiblity of buying the button and to get this as short handed as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was one poster. That's really not that much more than a normal hand. Plus you've got a limper who'll stay in for one more, and the poster who'll throw in one more (since he was loose enough to post in MP1). If you raise, otoh, the pot actually does start looking big to the players behind you, so I think a raise might actually make the CO and Button start thinking about staying in instead of getting out. Even if it buys the button, you're only likely to drive out SB, so you're, at best, only getting it down to 3 opponents, and you've bloated the pot with an easily dominated hand.

Preflop raise = not g00t, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boz nice post as usual but with 2.5sb worth of posted money in the pot plus one limper i like my hand against 3 randoms and a limper plus my position is good and can improve if i shut out the people behind me. Oh and i like to raise alot but i am not saying a limp is bad just that against the likely range here of my opponenets i like a raise just me.

[deception5]

I agree with Boz - I wouldn't raise this preflop in MP, especially at a Pacific game. Too often he'll get 1-2 cold callers behind + the blinds. His equity is good but not massive - all a raise will do is bloat the pot and give the loose passives odds to call down correctly. On a good flop his equity will skyrocket and that is a much better time to punish the loose passives.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont think there is any equity edge here considering one of the hands your against is random?

not that im suggesting there is, but i think arguments could be made for a raise or a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there might be, but if there is it's slight, and, as I said, I think that biggerizing the pot preflop might convince the players behind you to take a shot with ace-rag, etc, figuring it looks like you're trying to steal, therefore reducing rather than taking advantage of your edge. KJo is definitely a hand that might have an equity edge preflop, but that edge is going to be much greater or less once the flop comes.

Now, otoh, if the limper hadn't come in and the poster had checked to me, I'm raising every day of the week, and twice on bank holidays.

I think if one were to look up "trouble hand" in Webster's New Unabridged Poker Dictionary there would be a picture of K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif in the margin.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Boz - I wouldn't raise this preflop in MP, especially at a Pacific game. Too often he'll get 1-2 cold callers behind + the blinds. His equity is good but not massive - all a raise will do is bloat the pot and give the loose passives odds to call down correctly. On a good flop his equity will skyrocket and that is a much better time to punish the loose passives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i felt there was a strong chance of cold callers behind me then i have no problem with the limp but in most of the games i play in raise is the ticket here as we will probably see the flop three handed so i guess table texture is pretty important here also depends on what type of player the ep limper is.

[bozlax]

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Oh and i like to raise alot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Admitting you have a problem is the first step. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Actually, I usually advocate a more aggressive preflop line, and were this hand folded/checked to me I'd definitely be raising. I just think that in this case raising is going to unnecessarily bloat the pot, making it MORE attractive for the hands you're trying to fold out.

Oh, and as much as I like a good PFR, I hate, hate, hate KJo. QJo, too, for that matter, but not quite as much.

[sean c]

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Oh and i like to raise alot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Admitting you have a problem is the first step. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Actually, I usually advocate a more aggressive preflop line, and were this hand folded/checked to me I'd definitely be raising. I just think that in this case raising is going to unnecessarily bloat the pot, making it MORE attractive for the hands you're trying to fold out.

Oh, and as much as I like a good PFR, I hate, hate, hate KJo. QJo, too, for that matter, but not quite as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad habits are my specialty /images/graemlins/grin.gif but seriously like i said in my reply to deception i think it depends on table texture if it is likely i am getting cold calls behind me and just building a party pot then limp is for sure the way to go. In the games i play in getting 3-bet is a possibility but cold calls are pretty rare and fish specific so i will leave it at it depends on what type of players are behind me. And yeah KJ off can bee a big trap hand but i am pretty comfortable playing it post flop i am sure you are also.