Increase PF Raise?

I'm familiar with a ton of literature and Ed's SSHE, but I'm having problems putting it into practice I guess. I play 1/2 now but I can't seem to get my PF Raise above 7. My VPIP is 21 and I'd like to get my PF to 12. I raise automatically with AA, KK, QQ, AKs and Off, along with JJ. Mid to late, I raise with AQs and off, AJs and off along with 99 and 10/10. Should I raise with any ace on the button without callers? Also should I raise with 77/88 more? What do you guys do? It seems like its hard for me to pull the trigger on some raises. I know, it's probably because I'm a wuss, but any constructive crit would be helpful.

[crovax4444]

why would you want to get it over 7? 8 sounds about right, but 12 is just ridiculous. Work on lowering your VPIP. You also didn't mention how many hands you've played, but I'm betting it ain't enough, or you would have been wise enough not to ask this question.

Like always, just follow the SSHE chart religiously. Do it even if you don't understand why. Do it even if your feeling like it's wrong. Just do it!

Crovax

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why would you want to get it over 7

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I concur with crovax. As he alluded, unless you have the proper sample size - don't rely on the stats per se. Again, assuming your sample is good, your PFR is good where it is.

Follow the recommendations in SSHE and focus more on how you play your hand post-flop.

a point well taken, appreciate your input. I just thought that PF was supposed to be roughly half VPIP. Sample size in 1/2 about 7000 hands, .50/1.00 about 40000. If I work on lowering VPIP to 18 it should improve i think.

I think 12 is too high as well, but I also think 7 is just a little low. Depending on your sample size, I think 8-10 is a better range (this may be a little petty). The difference may come down to situational raises (i.e-a loose passive player limps in middle/late position and you only have 2 super TAGs behind you). Do you raise with KQo in the Hijack when no one has shown strength?

I am not assuming anything here, but I think that most important thing people (including myself) need to focus on is post flop play. I am constantly trying to develop the best lines preflop to get 1-2 big bets out of the other players post flop. In Low Limit Hold 'em this is really where the money is at because the fish are coming in with any 2 a lot of times no matter what the preflop action is.

[siccjay]

7 is not too bad for full ring. You can raise any ace and any pair on the button if you are first in, but at low limits its not something that should happen for you often. Start raising small pocket pairs and large suited connectors in LP when there are 4 or 5 limpers to you.

Your VPIP is a little high, especially if you said you are
a wuss. A lot of marginal hands won't be profitable for you until you learn to play better postflop.

If you are playing shorthanded, things are totally different.

I seem to be raising around 10% of hands at 1/2 (don't have a significant sample size), and I'm winning by far the most from the button (incidentally, my PFR is 4% higher here than any other position, but that should settle down a bit after more hands). Once you're comfortable with post-flop play, raising various suited connectors, offsuit broadways, and so on against tight blinds seems to make quite a difference.

Try playing some 6-max or other shorthanded game, you'll learn a lot.

[jmn32]

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Like always, just follow the SSHE chart religiously. Do it even if you don't understand why. Do it even if your feeling like it's wrong. Just do it!

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I was trying to work out if this was sarcastic, and in the end I decided it wasn't. If I'm right, then this advice makes me sad.

When you're just starting out, following a preflop chart is a great idea, as it gives you a solid foundation for good preflop play. But to improve as a player, you need to understand why the chart is how it is. If you don't understand why Ed et al put something in the chart, reread the preflop section until you do.

Yes, as others have stated, postflop play is where it's at, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make an effort to understand why you're doing what you're doing preflop.

You need to understand why it's correct to raise AA whatever the action, you need to understand why not to coldcall a raise from a tight player with AJo and you need to understand why your PFR % should be highest on the button.

I promise you that if you make the effort to learn why you're raising when the chart tells you to, your PFR % will rise. But note that that shouldn't be your aim in and of itself - i.e. don't just blindly try to reach those mystic numbers that someone somewhere has told you is the correct way to play. Understand what is going on and your numbers will fall into place.

[tiltaholic]

holy gregatron.

there's a lot of questionable and bad advice in this thread.

don't follow a chart. understand the chart and deviate accordingly.

a 20/7 game can be profitable. as can a 22/12. as can a 18/8.

when to raise more and should you? it depends on many factors, such as your postflop skill and your awareness of preflop table conditions

as for how? just do it. see what happens. it's only an extra small bet.

as to the hands you mentioned, you could start by raising ALL of them ALL the time in any non-blind position in an unraised pot (assuming a loose passive table). and throwing in some others.

this list would include:
AA-99
AKs-ATs
KQs, KJs
AKo-AJo
KQo

then, when you are comfortable with these, work in "situational" raises with suited aces, offsuit broadways, and hands like KTs, QTs, A9o etc...

[bozlax]

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there's a lot of questionable and bad advice in this thread.

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You beat me to it, Tilt. Especially that line about following the preflop chart "religiously," ugh.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to get it over 7? 8 sounds about right, but 12 is just ridiculous. Work on lowering your VPIP. You also didn't mention how many hands you've played, but I'm betting it ain't enough, or you would have been wise enough not to ask this question.

Like always, just follow the SSHE chart religiously. Do it even if you don't understand why. Do it even if your feeling like it's wrong. Just do it!

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

um 10-12 PFR is good for good postflop players, as is a VPIP in the low20s

there is nothing wrong with being 17/8 or so

as for following the chart, well its a good tool for beginning, new players, but as you gain experience, its usefullness drops way off, and you start analyzing the specific situations preflop .. I haven't looked at the chart in months

[bozlax]

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I haven't looked at the chart in months

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I mostly look at it these days when I'm responding to a post, here, and can't figure out why the poster would have played preflop the way he did. It's almost always the way the "loose" SSH preflop chart says to play the hand.

[lautzutao]

Why are people having such a hard time understanding that before you take the training wheels off, there have to be training wheels there to begin with?

[SavageMiser]

What's your steal percentage?

My overall PFR is about 10, and the later the position, the higher the number. I'm at 14.96 on the button, while I'm around 5 just past the blinds. A lot of that 14.96 is steal attempts.

Very good points, and the idea about the small pair raising is definitely something I need to consider. You know, I think VPIP of 19 would be ideal for 1/2. I'll get there.

[Aaron W.]

I'm going to join the small chorus of "the advice in this thread is questionable." Rather than reply to a bunch of things separately, I'll condense it all into a single post.

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to get it over 7? 8 sounds about right, but 12 is just ridiculous.

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No, it isn't. Your VPIP/PFR numbers vary greatly from table to table if you're playing well. If you're playing a static strategy (which you will need to do for a period of time when you're learning), the benchmarks that seem to work well are 16/8 (beginner TAG) and 18/10 (intermediate TAG). Players dipping into the 20/12 range are either very very good players or players who are quite bad but imagine that they're very very good. By the way, this doesn't mean that if you have those stats that you are that type of player. VPIP/PFR barely scratch the surface of what makes a player good or bad.

I emphasize this every time we get one of these "low PFR" threads. The way to increase your PFR is to look for situations where raising is good. The same A8s can be a limping hand or a raising hand depending on your position, the limpers in the pot, the players left to act, and a bunch of other factors.

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Like always, just follow the SSHE chart religiously...

[From another post] When you're just starting out, following a preflop chart is a great idea, as it gives you a solid foundation for good preflop play.

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Don't just follow the SSH chart religiously. That's a gross misuse of the chart. Think of the chart as a crutch which you use to get you past preflop play until you can play decently postflop. Once you can do that, learn to stand on your own (alternatively, take off the training wheels -- others can help you figure out what that means). I don't even think I'll go as far to say that it's a "solid" foundation. It's just "good enough".

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Depending on your sample size, I think 8-10 is a better range (this may be a little petty).

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You shouldn't be linking PFR to sample size. That's just a misuse of statistical data. As long as OP has a decent number of hands (a couple thousand), there should be enough data for PFR to be meaningful.

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I seem to be raising around 10% of hands at 1/2 (don't have a significant sample size), and I'm winning by far the most from the button (incidentally, my PFR is 4% higher here than any other position, but that should settle down a bit after more hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

Your PFR should get higher as you move towards the button. Over my time at Paradise $1-2 full ring games, my PFR ramped up from about 6% in early position to 13% in late position. There are plenty of good reasons why this should be true, but I'll leave that as an exercise.

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a 20/7 game can be profitable. as can a 22/12. as can a 18/8.

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This is all true. The game you pick depends on the table conditions. I'll play a LAG game with a weak loose limper on my right and some tight players on my left. I'll play slightly tighter if a good player limps in front of me.

But I want to add to this statement and say that an 18/8 preflop game is only a weak indicator of postflop play. You can be 18/8 and be weak tight, or you can be 18/8 and play like a solid TAG. There's so much more information beyond those two numbers which you need to consider if you want to learn to play better.

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there is nothing wrong with being 17/8 or so

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More truth. There are many situations which are marginally profitable preflop, but turn into -EV situations because of postflop errors. Your postflop skill determines some of your preflop play. If you're struggling postflop, do yourself a favor and play tighter preflop. You'll put yourself in a position where you can focus on the big postflop concepts without getting bogged down in the tougher spots. Once you get control of those, start loosening up and discovering the more intricate situations which can arise.

[Rev. Good Will]

meh, my full ring game is like 22/13 and I'm perfectly fine with it

I agree with everything tilt wrote in this thread