Hand against baronzeus. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Jeff W

11-02-2005, 05:03 AM

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB :#A500AF(baronzeus)/ calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, baronzeus calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks intending to check-raise.

scotty34

11-02-2005, 05:09 AM

What kind of image do you have? Is he going to call a C/R with anything you beat?

sthief09

11-02-2005, 05:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB :#A500AF(baronzeus)/ calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, baronzeus calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks intending to check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

well he either flopped a straight or a draw. I wonder how he perceives your check. he knows you don't have an overpair (that's what I'd assume if I were him at least). if he has a draw I think he should take a stab at it since you very well could be giving up. one problem with your checkraise though is you really can't fold to a 3-bet. he could easily perceive your play as AK or KQ trying to blow him off something and 3-bet with nothing but a flush draw. I think you best disguise your hand by betting here. he could have you on 2 overs or an overpair. I'd hate to put in 3 bets here and another on the river on that board. if the river is a diamond, I'd check-call. I don't want to let him get take it down without a showdown. not on this board. if he raises the turn and the river is a diamond I think you can check-fold

this all hinges on him knowing who you are though. interesting hand

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 05:19 AM

something interesting:

after 44 hands where we played together and one of us won,

i have won 22,
you have won 22,

i have won $830,
you have won $830,

we are even.

haha.

a couple things id like to say about this hand: (a) i was experimenting in 8 tabling (that's my excuse for whatever -EV plays i made today Jeff -- there was one hand where i misclicked on the turn and let you win with Q high UI...i think i said something like "[censored] misclick" after that hand). as a result my focus wasnt 100% on this hand. (b) i didnt know who JeffW was but i could tell he was a 2+2er after a while. i 3bet him lightly a few times too.

sthief09

11-02-2005, 05:27 AM

what do you think of his line vs yourself?

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think of his line vs yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally take a free card when people check to me and im on a draw, so im not sure if i like it.

especially when a TAG checks a turn on a board when i could conceivably call with one million draws/over card hands on the flop...honestly when he doesn't fire again it raises eyebrows. we were going at it quite a bit...

sthief09

11-02-2005, 05:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what do you think of his line vs yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally take a free card when people check to me and im on a draw, so im not sure if i like it.

especially when a TAG checks a turn on a board when i could conceivably call with one million draws/over card hands on the flop...honestly when he doesn't fire again it raises eyebrows. we were going at it quite a bit...

[/ QUOTE ]

if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

also, I like a flop raise with a draw here. he is raising lots of K high hands and some Q high ones, and even A-rag has a tough time calling

Jeff W

11-02-2005, 05:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

[/ QUOTE ]

Same... that's why I am surprised baronzeus interprets my check as strength.

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 05:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what do you think of his line vs yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally take a free card when people check to me and im on a draw, so im not sure if i like it.

especially when a TAG checks a turn on a board when i could conceivably call with one million draws/over card hands on the flop...honestly when he doesn't fire again it raises eyebrows. we were going at it quite a bit...

[/ QUOTE ]

if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

also, I like a flop raise with a draw here. he is raising lots of K high hands and some Q high ones, and even A-rag has a tough time calling

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe. ive been getting less clear on when i should raise the third person out with draws and when i should call and hope he bets again on the turn etc recently...i think its costing me a lot of money. generally i tend to raise more HU and try to call more in multiway pots where i think i can exploit my equity and try to gain back bets on later streets by raising someone who bets into me.

i dont think i ever have a pair here though. i raise the flop with most pairs. i think i have either two overs or a draw of sort every time when i peel this flop, so i dont like his check v much.

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 05:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

[/ QUOTE ]

Same... that's why I am surprised baronzeus interprets my check as strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

well one thing ive noticed recently is that a lot of people peel with any 2 and fold to my bet on the turn. this includes me (not any 2 but 4+ outs are enough for me to peel a flop usually with implied odds). the board is very peelable...i expect you to value bet your Ax...also, you showed down AQ and AJ and I think AT high all earlier in this session. (i guess im a LAG /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 05:53 AM

so as a general note, do you guys think against TAGs I should be taking stabs in this spot with two diamonds?

fyodor

11-02-2005, 06:06 AM

You have to be hoping
A) you have him beat
B) he will bet

In my experience I get a lot of whiffs with this move when the guy behind me is a good player who knows something about me. I get a lot of fish to bet though.

sthief09

11-02-2005, 06:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

[/ QUOTE ]

Same... that's why I am surprised baronzeus interprets my check as strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

well one thing ive noticed recently is that a lot of people peel with any 2 and fold to my bet on the turn. this includes me (not any 2 but 4+ outs are enough for me to peel a flop usually with implied odds). the board is very peelable...i expect you to value bet your Ax...also, you showed down AQ and AJ and I think AT high all earlier in this session. (i guess im a LAG /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

peeling with crap banking on implied odds is generally a terrible strategy that leaves you with reverse implied odds plus crappy pot odds. if you're drawing to a hand that is unlikely to be dead then that's a bit different. if you're counting on some bluff outs, like in some situations donking a card that completes a 4 liner straight, then that's also different. but in general, routinely disregarding pot odds while banking on implied odds without considering reverse implied odds, is a good way to jack up your variance while cutting your winrate a bit

baronzeus

11-02-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if I'm him, there's a good chance I'm check-folding AK since the pot is so small

[/ QUOTE ]

Same... that's why I am surprised baronzeus interprets my check as strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

well one thing ive noticed recently is that a lot of people peel with any 2 and fold to my bet on the turn. this includes me (not any 2 but 4+ outs are enough for me to peel a flop usually with implied odds). the board is very peelable...i expect you to value bet your Ax...also, you showed down AQ and AJ and I think AT high all earlier in this session. (i guess im a LAG /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

peeling with crap banking on implied odds is generally a terrible strategy that leaves you with reverse implied odds plus crappy pot odds. if you're drawing to a hand that is unlikely to be dead then that's a bit different. if you're counting on some bluff outs, like in some situations donking a card that completes a 4 liner straight, then that's also different. but in general, routinely disregarding pot odds while banking on implied odds without considering reverse implied odds, is a good way to jack up your variance while cutting your winrate a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

well,
in these situations, what i meant was

i will peel with a gutshot or better, any pair, any flush/straight draw, and sometimes two overs if i think i am reasonably undominated. i dont think it's -EV at all--usually i make up 2 bets on the turn when i hit a 4 or 5 outer and i have already made up the necessary difference.

11-02-2005, 01:59 PM

Why checkraise?

NLSoldier

11-02-2005, 02:37 PM

I really don't like this line. By CRing you are likely going to end up either giving a free card while ahead or putting in 3bets while behind. Just bet it.

TStoneMBD

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

ive been making these checkraises against known tags fairly often especially in shorthanded play and they almost always bet. the only problem is that they dont call the checkraise, but its different on a board like this because he would have so many outs with alot of holdings. i think the cr is great.