What to do with 11-14xBB?? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Sykes

11-02-2005, 02:29 AM

If you have between 11-14xBB what do you do with the following hands?

ATs in late position?
AJs in early position?
AJs in late position?
AQs in early position?
AQs in late position?
AKo/s in early position?
AKo/s in late position?

22-88 in early position?
22-88 in late position?
99-JJ in early position?
99-JJ in late position?
QQ-AA in early position?
QQ=AA in late position?

Seriously, the one major thing in my game to fix is what to do with these hands when holding 11-14xBB.

mlagoo

11-02-2005, 02:42 AM

It depends.

KneeCo

11-02-2005, 02:54 AM

There is no "answer".

Not to sound harsh, but the very fact that you would ask this in this manor tells me that there are a lot of of major things to fix in your game besides playing these hands with 11-14 BBs.

Basically, you need to think differently and appreciate the importance of situational thinking.

ah, screw it. Here do this (http://lgb.philgordonpoker.com/index.php?q=node/15) and never lose another hand of poker!

Sykes

11-02-2005, 02:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It depends.

[/ QUOTE ]

gee thanks. like i didn't expect that as an answer.

what else does it depend on? the amount of times you get called if you push? the number of callers you get if you raise 3x? the amount of times you can get people to fold to a continuation bet when you raise 3x preflop?

like what????

mlagoo

11-02-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends.

[/ QUOTE ]

gee thanks. like i didn't expect that as an answer.

what else does it depend on? the amount of times you get called if you push? the number of callers you get if you raise 3x? the amount of times you can get people to fold to a continuation bet when you raise 3x preflop?

like what????

[/ QUOTE ]

well, all of that.

plus the relative stack size of the blinds and anyone opening/entering before you.

plus your read on the blinds and anyone opening/entering before you.

plus your image at the table.

plus the action in front of you.

theres probably more that im leaving out.

if your question/request could be definitively answered, we wouldnt spend all day posting about specific hands.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no "answer".

Not to sound harsh, but the very fact that you would ask this in this manor tells me that there are a lot of of major things to fix in your game besides playing these hands with 11-14 BBs.

Basically, you need to think differently and appreciate the importance of situational thinking.

ah, screw it. Here do this (http://lgb.philgordonpoker.com/index.php?q=node/15) and never lose another hand of poker!

[/ QUOTE ]

well obviously I'm not a top player but I feel that this is one of the weakest parts in my game. Plus the limits that I play (1-5$) a lot of it has to do with cards you hold.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends.

[/ QUOTE ]

gee thanks. like i didn't expect that as an answer.

what else does it depend on? the amount of times you get called if you push? the number of callers you get if you raise 3x? the amount of times you can get people to fold to a continuation bet when you raise 3x preflop?

like what????

[/ QUOTE ]

well, all of that.

plus the relative stack size of the blinds and anyone opening/entering before you.

plus your read on the blinds and anyone opening/entering before you.

plus your image at the table.

plus the action in front of you.

theres probably more that im leaving out.

if your question/request could be definitely answered, we wouldnt spend all day posting about specific hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, if these are all factors.. why not just tell me the most +EV play in each situation.

Like let's say, that no one will ever fold AJo+/66+ if I push with 11-14xBB and a lot of people will call me with A TON of hands (say 35% of the hands) if I raise 3x.

What do I do?

mlagoo

11-02-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ok, if these are all factors.. why not just tell me the most +EV play in each situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serious

put in the freakin hours. i'm going to tell you how to play in every potential situation with every potential hand with this particular stack size?

first off, i don't even know, because i'm sure there are dozens (hundreds, thousands) of situations i've yet to encounter.

second off, i mean, did you even read MLG's recent thread about Pet Peeves? this is exactly what he's describing. "just tell me what to do." no! it's not going to help you become a good poker player, it's just going to help you become a bot with a bunch of pre programmed, unadaptable plays you make in preconceived situations.

if you can't be bothered to take the time to think about why a specific situation calls for a specific play, than i certainly don't feel the need to help you (because i think it's an exercise in futility), and i imagine others feel similarly.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, if these are all factors.. why not just tell me the most +EV play in each situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

no! it's not going to help you become a good poker player, it's just going to help you become a bot with a bunch of pre programmed, unadaptable plays you make in preconceived situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

please tell me why you can play STT like a bot but not MTTs.

i really don't see how becoming a bot is hurtful to become a poker player. I did it for STTs and for limit hold-em, so why can't I do it for MTTs?

seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards.

pfkaok

11-02-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
please tell me why you can play STT like a bot but not MTTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

stts are dumb.

betgo

11-02-2005, 03:30 AM

Fold until you get to the red zone.

mlagoo

11-02-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold until you get to the red zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please tell me why you can play STT like a bot but not MTTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

stts are dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

finally, a post that makes sense. thank you.

<font color="white"> YSSCKY</font>

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold until you get to the red zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold QQ-AA?? Thanks. My eyes are wide open.

betgo

11-02-2005, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold until you get to the red zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold QQ-AA?? Thanks. My eyes are wide open.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question is too broad. You are not going to get a serious answer. Try posting about how to play a specific hand.

11-02-2005, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with.

To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play.

I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold until you get to the red zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold QQ-AA?? Thanks. My eyes are wide open.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question is too broad. You are not going to get a serious answer. Try posting about how to play a specific hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok

300/600

I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop.

I've been playing pretty solid.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with.

To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play.

I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but

LOLOLOLOL.

seriously, in the first two-three levels of the tournament, people are very loose with the all-in.

and the people that call 3xbb raises pf can seriously have ANY 2 cards. most of the time it's a suited connector or something with huge reverse implied odds (like KTo) or a small pocket pair.

Please, don't be condescending. It's not a very good look for you and others.

betgo

11-02-2005, 03:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok

300/600

I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop.

I've been playing pretty solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is the other extreme. Been discussed many times before. Easy push.

Try starting a new thread with specific questions.

11-02-2005, 03:59 AM

For general advice... I think you have a good stack for re-raise all-ins. If your in late position and the raise comes from middle/late and looks any what so ever as a steal just reraise all in w/ any of those your prob getting good EV on that. Early position raise you prob wanna fold all those hands except for your very best hands (prob fold AQ if the player is solid) so play JJ+,AK (maybe TT, but maybe not). Raise the pot smaller like 2.5x bb so you don't pot commit yourself w/ a CB. This is general info that i think your looking for, just take into consideration the players your up against. Don't go reraising all in an early position raiser w/ 55 cuz u think u need to make a move. Be patient pick your spots and go with the reraise tactic if you think the opener has a good chance of being weak.

mlagoo

11-02-2005, 04:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with.

To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play.

I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but

LOLOLOLOL.

seriously, in the first two-three levels of the tournament, people are very loose with the all-in.

and the people that call 3xbb raises pf can seriously have ANY 2 cards. most of the time it's a suited connector or something with huge reverse implied odds (like KTo) or a small pocket pair.

Please, don't be condescending. It's not a very good look for you and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are your original question about having 11-14xBB and the first three levels of the tournament related?

seriously, just stop. no one is going to answer these questions because they cant be answered. you're making yourself look like an ass by giving attitude to those of us that are trying to explain that to you.

11-02-2005, 04:09 AM

Well, I tried to be helpful, and didn't think I was being condensending, but if you want to relate to the first 3 levels of a tournament which is not what I thought the post was about, I can't argue with your logic.

In fact, I'll justbe thankful 2+2 has an ignore feature so I don't make the mistake of trying to help you in the future if you are going to respond like this, I was trying to tell you that you cannot apply a set standard to every player in a tournament, it's not going to happen, but its a moot point, I can't help you if you don't want help.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 04:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with.

To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play.

I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but

LOLOLOLOL.

seriously, in the first two-three levels of the tournament, people are very loose with the all-in.

and the people that call 3xbb raises pf can seriously have ANY 2 cards. most of the time it's a suited connector or something with huge reverse implied odds (like KTo) or a small pocket pair.

Please, don't be condescending. It's not a very good look for you and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are your original question about having 11-14xBB and the first three levels of the tournament related?

seriously, just stop. no one is going to answer these questions because they cant be answered. you're making yourself look like an ass by giving attitude to those of us that are trying to explain that to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

it wasn't supposed to be related to the OP. he was stating what he believes to be fact and I'm stating arguments against his beliefs/ideas.

betgo, can you explain to me why it's an easy push? how about if you have 22? how about if people will call all-ins with 77+/AJo+?

Sykes

11-02-2005, 04:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I tried to be helpful, and didn't think I was being condensending, but if you want to relate to the first 3 levels of a tournament which is not what I thought the post was about, I can't argue with your logic.

In fact, I'll justbe thankful 2+2 has an ignore feature so I don't make the mistake of trying to help you in the future if you are going to respond like this, I was trying to tell you that you cannot apply a set standard to every player in a tournament, it's not going to happen, but its a moot point, I can't help you if you don't want help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respond like what? What are you talking about? You believe that people at low-limits are not nuts with all-ins and I disagree just based on the fact on the numerous MTTs I've played at these limits.

I mean, it's quite obvious that you can't play robotically when you have a large enough chip stack but 11-14x BB is not a large stack and you need to make a move sometime to continue surviving in the tournament and have chances to accumulate chips.

bennies

11-02-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok

300/600

I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop.

I've been playing pretty solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is the other extreme. Been discussed many times before. Easy push.

Try starting a new thread with specific questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not extreme at all. It's a close decision. I fold close decisions.

Matador225

11-02-2005, 11:35 AM

Yea I agree with Bennies. I don't think 55 UTG+1 with that much room to maneuver is an easy push by any means. I would fold it and not have any regrets.

Generally at this point in tournaments I would only move in with at least pocket 7s and maybe not even then if I think there is a decent chance I will get called. If the table is really loose aggressive and someone w/ 88 or 99 will call me, its an easy fold.

There are also situations where I would push 55, but it would have to be at a very weak-tight table with no dominant chip stack that would have a pretty wide range.

betgo

11-02-2005, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok

300/600

I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop.

I've been playing pretty solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is the other extreme. Been discussed many times before. Easy push.

Try starting a new thread with specific questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not extreme at all. It's a close decision. I fold close decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

The play is chip EV+ because it is not that often someone has 99-AA. You don't mind AK/AQ calling.

Since the play is close, you good choose to fold based on strategic considerations. Perhaps you are folding based on my red zone theory to get a lower M to make future pushes easier.

I really think pushing is best though. In addition to stealing blinds, there is a good chnace you will get a "coin flip" against over cards and a chance to double up.

It is OK to fold in close situations, but saying you always fold close situations seems weak/tight.

betgo

11-02-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yea I agree with Bennies. I don't think 55 UTG+1 with that much room to maneuver is an easy push by any means. I would fold it and not have any regrets.

Generally at this point in tournaments I would only move in with at least pocket 7s and maybe not even then if I think there is a decent chance I will get called. If the table is really loose aggressive and someone w/ 88 or 99 will call me, its an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If no one will call with 66, 77, A6, or A7, what is the difference between pushing with 55 and pushing with 77?

There is 20% chance someone will have 88-AA. The other 80% of the time you gain about 1.5xBB by winning the blinds or being called with over cards. Against an over pair, you lose an of 5xBB. So on average you win .2xBB.

Do you have strategic reasons for not wanting to gamble, or are you basing your dicisions on fear?

Matador225

11-02-2005, 11:55 AM

When I was talking about folding 55 I wasn't assuming 66 or 77 would fold.

When I mentioned pushing 77 or above I was referring to a different situation where I had more knowledge about the calling ranges of those to act behind me.

All of this being said I would push any pocket pair from MP or later but I'm not pushing 55 UTG+1 without very specific reads.

Exitonly

11-02-2005, 12:29 PM

ATs in late position? = Push
AJs in early position? = Probably Push
AJs in late position? = Push
AQs in early position? = Push
AQs in late position? = Raise/Push
AKo/s in early position? = Push
AKo/s in late position? = Raise/Push

22-88 in early position? Fold/Limp
22-88 in late position? Push
99-JJ in early position? Push
99-JJ in late position? Raise/Push
QQ-AA in early position? Raise
QQ=AA in late position? Raise

of course, table image/table flow/reads could change all of that. but i think those are my defaults.

bennies

11-02-2005, 12:41 PM

Hi betgo, thanks for replying in detail. I know you know most of what I will say, I don't intend to patronize.

Firstly, having 77 is not the same as having 55 (or 22) as you say in response to another post, even if no-one calls with less than 99. An example is a board like JJ662, here Hero would be happy with 7's.

Secondly, assuming calling ranges are always only assumptions. Sometimes people make surprisingly donkish calls and then it's nice to have a better hand.

Thirdly, at a full table with 8 players behind Hero I think your numbers are slightly off. I agree it's very close but I think it's -CEV. In any case, you might be right, I know very little about multi-tour dynamics. But in the sng world coinflips are rarely to Hero's advantage unless he is very short stacked.

Sykes

11-02-2005, 12:47 PM

11-02-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ATs in late position? = Push
AJs in early position? = Probably Push
AJs in late position? = Push
AQs in early position? = Push
AQs in late position? = Raise/Push
AKo/s in early position? = Push
AKo/s in late position? = Raise/Push

22-88 in early position? Fold/Limp
22-88 in late position? Push
99-JJ in early position? Push
99-JJ in late position? Raise/Push
QQ-AA in early position? Raise
QQ=AA in late position? Raise

of course, table image/table flow/reads could change all of that. but i think those are my defaults.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. This is basically what I wanted.

As always, Exit, you're a tremendous help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but why can't you figure this stuff out on your own? The original post made me so frustrated. Why do you need cut and dry ways to play hands? IT WILL turn you into a bot, and no, you can't beat MTTs by playing like a bot. I don't think you can beat any poker game by being a bot. It's obvious you're looking for the easy way out.

Don't take this as a personal attack on you, because it could have been anybody. However, I've been lurking here for awhile now, and I'm tired of people trying to skip the actual "thinking" part of poker, which is the most important part.

betgo

11-02-2005, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ATs in late position? = Push
AJs in early position? = Probably Push
AJs in late position? = Push
AQs in early position? = Push
AQs in late position? = Raise/Push
AKo/s in early position? = Push
AKo/s in late position? = Raise/Push

22-88 in early position? Fold/Limp
22-88 in late position? Push
99-JJ in early position? Push
99-JJ in late position? Raise/Push
QQ-AA in early position? Raise
QQ=AA in late position? Raise

of course, table image/table flow/reads could change all of that. but i think those are my defaults.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I discussed, I think 22-88 in early position may be a push, and I don't like limping with it.

AA in early position could be a limp. I might also limp with AK in early position with no ante if I thought someone was going to raise. It is also possible to push with AA-QQ from early position if people are expecting you to push and might be suspicious of a raise or limp.

pfkaok

11-02-2005, 06:43 PM

i can't believe that at no point in this thread was it even mentioned if there's antees.

IMO, if you ever openpush with 11-14BB in a no-antee game, then you're playing scared poker. i really don't even think that pushing with 10x BB is optimal very often with no antees.

Roman

11-02-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe that at no point in this thread was it even mentioned if there's antees.

IMO, if you ever openpush with 11-14BB in a no-antee game, then you're playing scared poker. i really don't even think that pushing with 10x BB is optimal very often with no antees.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is terrible advice, there are plenty of situations where you want to acoid showdowns and pushing is the right play with 10-15x

11-02-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe that at no point in this thread was it even mentioned if there's antees.

IMO, if you ever openpush with 11-14BB in a no-antee game, then you're playing scared poker. i really don't even think that pushing with 10x BB is optimal very often with no antees.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is terrible advice, there are plenty of situations where you want to acoid showdowns and pushing is the right play with 10-15x

[/ QUOTE ]