Big pot, big fold

[sam h]

One limper to me and I raise black kings UTG3. Decent, straightforward player cold calls two on the button, fishy BB calls, limper calls.

Flop is J85r. Check, I bet, button calls, BB raises, limper coldcalls, I reraise and all call.

Turn is 2d, putting a diamond draw on the board. Checked to me and I bet. Now button raises, BB folds, limper coldcalls and I fold getting 16:1.

[yct]

I'm not a fan of big lay downs. You better have a very good read on your opponent to lay down your over pair in a big pot.

[bernie]

didnt you also post the laydown with AK?

are you making these laydowns just to try and make great laydowns? are you that sure of your reads? if youre unsure, you call it out. if youre beat then, it doesnt cost you the pot. you dont test your read by folding. you test it by calling. then, when you have much more confidence in your read, THEN you can start laying it down.

sure, this looks like a wake up on the turn play by the button. but if youre not sure.....

b

[sam h]

Bernie,

No, I have not written any other posts about big laydowns with AK or anything else. Big laydowns are actually pretty uncharacteristic for me, which is something I'm trying to change. Thus this post. If you're going to respond with the psychoanalysis bit about "making big laydowns just to try and make big laydowns," at least spend the fifteen seconds to look back at whatever other AK post you were referring to and get the information right.

[elysium]

hi sam
you need to call here sam.

[bernie]

i had to look back and no, you didnt post one earlier. sorry about that. for some reason i thought you did. might have been because you responded to one and i got done reading it so my idiot self linked the 2.

btw...no offense was meant in my response.

one thing that helps with laydowns, is if you really know the player. in this case, as i stated before, he does the wake up and bet move. which is pretty common with how may play sets. but if he's doing this with 2 pair, less common, then you have a call.

one thing i do is think of how i may react if im bumped off a good/possible winning hand. if i will flee to the toilet and yak, then i will call. it means i dont have a good enough read. if im comfotable enough with my read that even if i was outplayed a little it wouldnt bother me, then i can safely fold.

really it depends on how strong your read is and how much you trust it. there does come a time to start trusting it. even if the hand doesnt go to showdown and you dont get validated by the guy showing, you are still comfortable with it.

also remember, they dont know what you folded. so they are unaware of how big a laydown you did. but it can be overdone. so once in awhile, even if your read is strong, call down. even if you know youre beat. usually if HU or shorthanded and it isnt going to cost you but 1 bet. this will help from keeping some from trying to overrun you if you feel youve been folding postflop alot. something to watch for.
and it can happen with the fish. even they can eventually see you laying down hands. though it takes longer for them to process it, they can catch on. it's not a major adjustment, just once inawhile if youre feeling youve folded a little too much and you think they may be trying something.

i think youre laydown here is ok. but you know this players bet standards much better. what would he raise with here? youve shown quite a bit of power the whole way. the button knows he could be looking at a 3 bet here.

again, sorry for the initial response. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

hope this helps you a little more

b

[Bob T.]

A very frequent play by a lot of opponents is the semibluff turn raise when a two flush is on the board. I think that I would call down here almost every time.

[sam h]

i was almost positive this player had 88 or JJ for a flopped set. unfortunately, the other guy in the hand who coldcalled two on the turn then bet the river when a blank hit and folded to a raise from the button, so there was no showdown.

i think you make a good point about the image thing. it was a full table, but i did have a couple shots taken at me afterwards.

don't worry about the AK thing, and thanks for the thoughtful analysis.