Was this an easy fold? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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11-01-2005, 05:21 PM

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB completes.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 6d 7d (two pair, sevens and sixes).
UTG doesn't show.
UTG+1 doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins 12 BB. 

I'm not sure if I should have folded this on the turn after he raised me or on the river. I stayed with it even though I was pretty sure I was beat. How should I have played it? (BTW, I have no reads on anyone, I was multitabling and doing other stuff while playing, and I still need to buy PT, so I'm sorry about that.)

Looking back on it, what I see is that I still had 5 outs going to the river, but my odds were only 7-1 after he raised me. So that seems like a borderline call to me. I don't know if I could have folded it on the river.

Vote4Pedro

11-01-2005, 05:24 PM

I call down after the turn c/r

David04

11-01-2005, 05:26 PM

Raise preflop.

Call down after the C/R.

Bez

11-01-2005, 05:27 PM

No way I'd fold here. Make sure you raise pre-flop. What was your thinking behind not doing so?

11-01-2005, 05:28 PM

You have to call down here IMO. First of all you usually have 8 outs if someone has two pair (here 2K's, 3Q's, 3 3's). Secondly, particularly at these limits people are going to c/r with hands that you beat often enough to make it profitable to call down.

EDIT: As everyone is saying, you should ALWAYS be raising this preflop. For the rest of your poker career. Every time!

littlebu

11-01-2005, 05:34 PM

Preflop action has me a little confused. Did you raise preflop and it just isn't showing since sb completes twice, mp2 calls twice, and the button calls twice, but then after the SB completes it says one fold without your action so I'm gonna assume you did raise. I am calling down after the check raise on the turn. He could also be playing Qx of hearts this way figuring he had top pair and the 4 flush? Still calling down though.

jimcrow2

11-01-2005, 05:40 PM

I don't understand how the OP could have 8 outs if "2 K's, 3 Q's, 3 3's, etc." /images/graemlins/confused.gif

ajm36

11-01-2005, 05:41 PM

You raise this PF to try and get garbage like 67 suited out (or at least punish them). Although, SB probably won't fold this. You were check raised on turn and not on the flop (SB checked the flop as well)--you are beat. Keep in mind you are still drawing and not to the nuts. Fold.

Goodnews

11-01-2005, 05:44 PM

Where is the part you raise preflop?

I would have 3-bet the turn. Just to see where I was in the hand, if I capped, I call and fold the river UI, it seems that the Button would stick around too.

Given, the limit, I would not be surprised to see 63, 76, Q7, Q6, (9 ways each) QQ, 33, 77, 66 (6 ways each). We have 63 ways to lose but we beat Qx (where x is not a 3,7 or a 6) which is 90 ways (I consider Qx the only hand that we beat that wouldplay this way).
We have the winning hand 90 vs 63 or approx. 3:2 I only need to win approx. 11% of the time so I call the river.

I don't raise because getting 3-bet would be disastrous because only a superior hand would raise or call, while a weaker hand is more likely to fold than raise or call.

11-01-2005, 10:14 PM

Sorry, I did raise preflop, but for some reason I don't think it converted right. I'd edit that, but I don't think I can edit started topics. So yeah, I did raise preflop.

hizo1

11-01-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB completes.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 6d 7d (two pair, sevens and sixes).
UTG doesn't show.
UTG+1 doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins 12 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

It's usually a good idea not to post results as they skew posters' opinions.

I call down after the c/r without any reads for the reasons stated above w/ regards to the board paring and counterfitting someone else's two pair, as well as the odd time villain is aggressively playing KQ and AQ.

hizo1

11-01-2005, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where is the part you raise preflop?

I would have 3-bet the turn. Just to see where I was in the hand, if I capped, I call and fold the river UI, it seems that the Button would stick around too.

Given, the limit, I would not be surprised to see 63, 76, Q7, Q6, (9 ways each) QQ, 33, 77, 66 (6 ways each). We have 63 ways to lose but we beat Qx (where x is not a 3,7 or a 6) which is 90 ways (I consider Qx the only hand that we beat that wouldplay this way).
We have the winning hand 90 vs 63 or approx. 3:2 I only need to win approx. 11% of the time so I call the river.

I don't raise because getting 3-bet would be disastrous because only a superior hand would raise or call, while a weaker hand is more likely to fold than raise or call.

[/ QUOTE ]

W/out any reads 3-betting for information won't be too helpful. Is villain a tricky aggro with JJ, KQ, AQ, or something nuttier, vs. your predictable C/R 2-pair?

Calling down after the C/R is cheaper and it gets us to showdown.

Augster

11-01-2005, 10:41 PM

Haven't read anything else yet...

Uh, RAISE pre-flop!

Flop is good.

Turn, I 3-bet it and see if it's capped.

River, I just call behind also.

Hand plays differently if you become the pre-flop aggressor, though the results may have been the same.

Don't post results, even in white. Most folks just have to look.

EDIT:

I have now read through, and see that you raised pre, UTG+1 dropped and the others called. Should have been 9SB to the flop. I bet out also, but ANYONE has odds to call at 10:1, and thus they do.

My turn play changes now that I know you showed strength preflop. I just call down to the C/R. There are 6 BB's going to the turn, you bet, a caller and the SB puts in 2, so now you have 10:1, maybe 11:1 if button calls to just call the C/R. Knowing what he had now, you have 8 outs, which is more than justifyable. But, even those outs may not be clean. The button is sticking around with something. So if I Q or a 3 hit, HE may have trips.

Generally speaking though, a turn C/R against a preflop/flop aggressor should tell you you need to catch.

ajm36

11-02-2005, 12:23 AM

sorry, I mis-read your post--second time today.