Middle pair sucks (KJ 6max)

[Obliky]

Really not sure about my play on this one, im in a bit of a downswing atm so i think i may be trying to push situations like this too much.

Villian is throwing a party 82/7/0.56

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Can i fold the turn here?
And yes i would fold the river to a raise

[Nilbud]

I'm having the very same struggles myself. For what it's worth, I think a fold on the turn is OK. When four players are happy to call a flop bet, I think the chances are pretty good that one of them has an ace. If you're behind on the flop, I give you 4-5 outs to improve and I don't think that's enough.

[lautzutao]

Why did you check the turn?

[adsman]

I would have bet the turn.

[Nilbud]

OK, if you bet the turn and get two callers, what's the plan on the river. Too much of the time, I find myself throwing another bet away when I get shown Ace-rag.

[lautzutao]

There's no guarantee that somebody has an ace. They could just as easily have a PP, a Jack with a worse kicker, or some trash they're hoping connects on the river.

Villian is 82/7/.56 That aggression tells me he's raising if he has an Ace. Who knows what the other guys got, he's probably chasing something. If you bet and are raised on the turn...then maybe you think about throwing it away.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, if you bet the turn and get two callers, what's the plan on the river. Too much of the time, I find myself throwing another bet away when I get shown Ace-rag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the turn, don't risk giving a diamond draw a free card, if random Ace is just calling, be cool. It's his problem not yours.

Check most Rivers. Depending on the board and my reads of the players I'll sometimes call. Don't overcall usually though, and obviously don't call a raise.

[Nilbud]

[ QUOTE ]

Villian is 82/7/.56 That aggression tells me he's raising if he has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

0.56 aggression at 6-max and you think he raises any ace? I would argue that it's likely he only raises 2-pair or better. Now, if he had higher aggro numbers, say around 2.0+, I'd agree with the "raising any ace" theory.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Villian is 82/7/.56 That aggression tells me he's raising if he has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

0.56 aggression at 6-max and you think he raises any ace? I would argue that it's likely he only raises 2-pair or better. Now, if he had higher aggro numbers, say around 2.0+, I'd agree with the "raising any ace" theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone plays 82% of their hands and has a 0.56 aggresssion, then they are aggressive. Like a 2.0+ aggressive.

[deception5]

When you bet and get 1 caller on a flop like this it's always correct to bet again on the turn because there are a ton of drawing possibilitis.

When you bet and get 2 callers, there's a reasonable chance you still have the best hand because maybe one has a diamond draw and one has a g/s or a straight draw or even a 9. But you should proceed with caution.

But with 3 callers you have to assume one of the opponents very likely has an ace (especially since 2 of them cold called preflop - bad players hate to fold aces preflop) and it's going to cost you 2BB to get to showdown. So I like the turn check. When there's a bet and a call I would consider folding. You can make a loose call if you think you'll be able to make up the difference when you hit a K/J but you should fold the river unimproved, but folding I think is usually a better plan here. If it was a bet and 2 folds I would probably call down unless the bettor was very passive.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Villian is 82/7/.56 That aggression tells me he's raising if he has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

0.56 aggression at 6-max and you think he raises any ace? I would argue that it's likely he only raises 2-pair or better. Now, if he had higher aggro numbers, say around 2.0+, I'd agree with the "raising any ace" theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

This aggression stat is meaningless without fold% or wtsd%, because it either means he folds the flop when he misses (which is very often) and is very passive or he never folds when he misses and is extremely aggressive.

[lautzutao]

It's besides the point what his aggression stats are. Still think this turn check is a mistake.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
It's besides the point what his aggression stats are. Still think this turn check is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a default play I think after getting called by 3 players on an ace high flop and not having an ace that betting again is not the correct play - you are just drawing to 4-5 outs (or less) way too often. It's closer on this board because it is drawy, but I still don't think it's correct.

It would be completely different if hero had position and could check behind on the river.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I checked the turn because i thought with the number of people calling me it was likely someone had an ace. Then after checking it seemed wrong to fold for one bet as the board was draw heavy.

Then on the river i felt resigned to call one bet and so thought it would be better to bet myself..as i knew i could fold to a raise.

All in all very fuzzy reasoning..i think i needed to take a definite line in the hand. Either:

1, Bet the turn, check then call or fold river depending on action.
2, Check/call the turn, check/fold the river unimproved.

Im not sure which is best..

[deception5]

Check/folding the turn is also an option.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/folding the turn is also an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was gonna put that down..but i thought it sounded a bit weak/tight. However i did consider the turn bettor to be resonably fishy (even though i had seen him make some stupid plays earlier), so check/folding may not be too bad of an option.