early stages against total idiots

[stoli]

This keeps on happening.... It seems very often when I'm playing MTTs I will raise with a good hand. Get called in at least one spot, make a bet and either on the flop or turn get check-raised some ridiculous amount or my entire stack. Usually this is coming at the beginning of the tourney when the blinds are still like 10/15 and there's a 100 bucks in the pot. The people doing it are total idiots but I don't want to risk my entire tourney on a marginal hand in the first 15 minutes of the tourney. Should I be much more tight at the start of the tourney and wait for these players to be eliminated. Any suggestions? Examples below.


Example: 1
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
Hero (t1055)
CO (t1090)
Button (t900)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t985)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif, K /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, ,4 folds,Hero raises to t45, 2 folds, SB calls t35, BB calls t30, UTG calls t30.

Flop: (t177.50) :7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, j /images/graemlins/spade.gif, t /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB is all-in [940], UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1117.50


Example 2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Button (t955)
SB (t985)
BB (t970)
UTG (t955)
Hero (t1010)
UTG+2 (t1150)
MP1 (t900)
MP2 (t1120)
MP3 (t955)
CO (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with :a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, :j /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to t60, 7 folds, BB calls t45.

Flop: (t127.50) :4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, :9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, :k /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t115, BB raises to t325, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t567.50

Why are you raising with these two hands in these positions? That's a dangerous habit.

First hand, it was either someone getting excited about having 89 and hitting their straight, or they had a flush draw and thought it was the nuts.

Second one is an easy laydown once check raised, I think you overbet it there though, I would have bet about 75-100 there.

Some people like being super tight in the start of them when there is alot of donks, but I like to loosen up some myself, still play good hands well, but try to double up because of a donk player who doesn't know any better. I mean, if you don't get all that money, either the donks will eliminate themselves til there is a superdonk, or other good players will be feasting on them.

I don't see a problem with folding in either of those hands though.

[daveymck]

I think this is the dilema thats probably been discussed a lot here, do you play tight and hold out for the later rounds or dry and outdonk the donks and double up.

In the end I think its down to your style of play and confidence at a being able to play well postflop and b accepting the fact you will have a higher rate of early bustouts.

Personally I am in the tight early camp and probably would not of played either hand early on a party 1,000 chip tournament but may have played the AJs on a 1,500 slower blind UB one.

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising with these two hands in these positions? That's a dangerous habit.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts too. You gotta let those hands go, or, maybe, just maybe, call with them. Definitely not raising pf with them.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the dilema thats probably been discussed a lot here, do you play tight and hold out for the later rounds or dry and outdonk the donks and double up.

In the end I think its down to your style of play and confidence at a being able to play well postflop and b accepting the fact you will have a higher rate of early bustouts.

Personally I am in the tight early camp and probably would not of played either hand early on a party 1,000 chip tournament but may have played the AJs on a 1,500 slower blind UB one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm trying to find a middle ground. I've worked very hard at developing my post-flop skills. This has benefitted me greatly when I'm not getting any cards because often I can bluff in the right spots to pick up a few small pots and stay in it. Plus I can play a few more hands because I can usually outplay them.

When you're not getting any cards, then you'll play hell trying to stay ahead of the blinds, if you're too tight. If you're too loose, you run the risk of bleeding chips and again getting blinded out.

What is most important, I think, is playing semi-loose early, <u>if you can get away from a hand</u> . If you can't, stay with tight play. What we're seeing in these two examples it loose play from a player that doesn't quite understand how to play the style.

Stoli, if you're going to play hands like this OOP, then you want to play them cheaply--not raising marginal hands like these--and be able to get out of them if you don't hit the flop strongly. Middle pair is not flopping strongly, as you're out of position and can be drained of a lot of chips. I'd advise you to tighten up...a lot.

CJ

[zambonidrivr]

both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. These are very good limping hands especially at level one. You just have to remember that you are playing KJs for two-pair or better. Folding AJs preflop is weak-tight.

[Sam T.]

These specific hands are folds. People love, love, love JT, so if the flop is JTx, and villains go nuts, someone is on two pair.

More generally, you don't want to donk it up, but the point that you have to get the fishs' chips before someone else does is very important. Figure out who the idiots are at the table, and make it your busienss to get in hands with them with any reasonable holding. They don't care about kickers much, so (to take your KJ example) top pair, king-kicker is probably good. While some argue that TPTK is not a hand with which to go to felt, that is simply not true in the first hour of a $20+2.

Also, when you flop big, remember that they don't understand stacks and betting, so get them in on the intallment plan. They don't realize that if you bet half your stack you are pot committed, so bet whatever you think they'll call.

In these huge tournaments, your goal should not be to get to the first break with your stack in tact, but to get there with 2x your starting stack.

[stoli]

Thanks to those who took the time to look at this theoretically and not just saying fold pre-flop. Some background, I play lots of tourneys have read all the 2+2 books and have done decent when playing tight aggressive. By doing well I mean I make the money consistently but not final tables or major cashes consistently. After reading the tournament reports of adanthar and the others I was trying to incorporate playing more hands like they do, but have been running into these situations. I was looking for responses from players who play a little more loose and succesfully play with the chip accumulation style. A discussion of theory between the chip accumulation theory and the survivalist theory is cool too, but take the time to come up with something better than, "I don't mean to be a dick but these are marginal, just fold."


I also find it interesting that you tell me to get a clue because....

Harrington says in early position when nobody has entered the pot: AJ suited use a mixture of half raises and half calls. But you say this is a clear fold pre-flop.

"With KJs in middle position I would play in all middle positions with a mixture of 40 percent calls and 60 percent raises"


If that is your response to the question then don't answer because you didn't answer the question. Maybe preface your response with I would be careful playing these hands (which I'm aware of), or this isn't my style of playing. I didn't ask are these good hands to play pre-flop I asked how is best to respond to the check-raises and huge bets that i suspect may be bluffs or hands similar to my own.

[Melchiades]

I would probably play both of these hands, but I would limp them. And fold both after the action on the flop. Unless you have any read that says superduper donk that loves pushing with air, draws or bottom pair.

Limping AJ means I don't feel like wasting money on a cbet when I miss the flop as well. Later when the blinds grow, I am much more likely to raise AJ.

[zambonidrivr]

My point of view is as follows.

1. Per your comments and Harrington's hand selection model... I would agree with and you if stacks were deeper.
2. I am assuming this is a PP tournament you are referring. We all know the blind structures are tough there.
3. I am only suggesting that hand selection, position, and relative chip stacks are extremely important when selecting hands to be involved with.
4. I am certainly not a pro, but I am a winning player. My biggest finish was winning the guarenteed $40k, which was last week. Typically, like you, I find myself busting out when cards don't come; however, I would rather become a better bubble player and use my stack as a weapon when it counts, than raise early on in a tournament with marginal hands when players have very wide calling ranges, and you can count on someone playing back at you.... which is not what you with AJ. In the example you posted, I think I shove that flop after someone raises. Good chance you can double up which you need to do. If you bust, there are plenty of other SNG's, MTT, &amp; Cash games you can quickly join and earn your buy in at.

[Brad F.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. These are very good limping hands especially at level one. You just have to remember that you are playing KJs for two-pair or better. Folding AJs preflop is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean at level one for AJs? I fold AJs UTG+1 in many situations and I'm far from weak-tight.

Brad

[zambonidrivr]

really? always regardless of stack size?

[stoli]

Nice post thanks for elaborating and getting a more stimulating conversation going. Good point about the blind structure and the fact that maybe stacks need to be deeper to be playing these hands. I guess I need to be a little more careful out of position and at picking my spots, i.e. what kind of players are in the blinds and still to act.

[stoli]

are you avoiding this because of the many weak players that are still in the tourney? Or are you deciding this based on having poor position and lack of reads? I'm just asking what all is going into your decision making process here. I'm really good at this for limit but trying to get better at this for Tourneys. Because with a very comfortable M and a hand that would usually be a play I would think there would have to be multiple factors to keep from playing this. Thanks for the help in advance.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]uve made some crazy posts in the last hour

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. These are very good limping hands especially at level one. You just have to remember that you are playing KJs for two-pair or better. Folding AJs preflop is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean at level one for AJs? I fold AJs UTG+1 in many situations and I'm far from weak-tight.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo, sure, but I think AJs is a somewhat different animal. Part of it also has to do with table dynamics. If there is a lot of raising, I'll dump it, but if I'm pretty sure I can see a flop for t15, with the possibility of flopping a monster, then I'll do so.

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play these hands everytime (not everytime, depending on position, actions preflop, etc..) in level 1, and a lot of other ones much worse with good success. I would actually say that if you're folding these hands everytime in level 1 then you suck at tournament poker. That is not to say though if you want to play them successfully you must have somepostflop skill.

[zambonidrivr]

this a leak in your game

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]
this a leak in your game

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a leak in your style of play, but its how i play. I have had fine success being loose/aggr in the early rounds in tournies. I like to see alot of flops with a wide range of hands. Obviously all the table dynamics determine what I play, when and why.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
this a leak in your game

[/ QUOTE ]

playing AJs is a leak? What?

[stoli]

and you have read harrington on hold'em and supersystem right? I think it's a little weak to be folding, I can see just calling and playing them carefully as a speculative hand. The KJs was in the last middle position spot and folded to me and the AJs is up front so should probably just be limped with and played ultra carefully hoping to pick up a flush draw or straight draw.

[dmk]

Is this thread a joke? Are you guys seriously arguing the preflop action on both of these hands? How about you pay attention to the streets that matter here.

I don't think hand 1 is necessarily an easy fold. I'm not sure why you included hand 2 in this post or why this would have to be a total idiot. Maybe he has KQ/KJ? Dunno, but I'm not sure why its included given the title of the post.

Regarding hand 1, what range do you think BB has? Also, do you think you call w/ A/images/graemlins/spade.gifAx here?

[pindawg]

Hand1, i guess the bb made a good bet. Theres no way you can call this without super reads. Wait for a better spot to take this donkeys chips.

Hand 2 becomes an easy fold. I like the continuation bet, but I would have made it 80 or 90.

[stoli]

About including the second hand.. I was including it just because It is indicative of the the problem i am having. I get check-raised a large amount or all-in and I don't believe they have it necessarily but also don't want to risk everything with a marginal holding or a coin-flip situation.

I guess the main thing I'm talking about is that it is
these check-raises and overbets are hard to interpret. From a good player a lot of times it means they want you to go away. And against a lot of weak players they think they are making a value bet and they do it with the nuts rather than extracting money with pot sized bets.

Thanks for chiming in about people answering the relevant questions in the post, I appreciate that. As for hand one It was like the third hand of the game so it was difficult putting him on a range without ever seeing him play a hand before so I had to believe that he had two pair, the straight, or a draw that will come in a decent amount of the time. I mean i wasn't prepared to put my whole tourney on the line with top pair on against a coordinated board..


Thanks for the help and all of your past posts they have helped tons!!

[mlagoo]

people have different playing styles, but to call this dude a donk for playing KJ and AJ for a raise is stupid. it's called playing a loose aggressive style. many people do it with a great deal of success, in online MTTs and in deepstack tourneys.

As for the preflop action -- in the first hand, if you're going to raise, you need to make it a meaningful amount. Raising to 3xBB in level 1 makes every limper and the BB have implied odds to call you hoping to stack you. My general rule (stole it from someone else) is 4-5xBB + 1BB for each limper.

Limping with this hand isn't bad, folding is bad. The ability to play marginal hands is what makes a decent tournament player good. You only really get two levels in an online tournament where you are given a significant amount of freedom in post-flop play. Take advantage of them. Folding this hand in an unraised pot preflop is criminal.

On the flop I probably fold there, but I will call that silly bet in some tournaments depending on the buyin. A lot of people will make that bet with AT or QJ or a lot of pocket pairs, because they love to put preflop raisers on a whiffed AK (the only hand they beat).

On the second hand, I don't like the raise from EP with AJs. Just limp. One of the tricks to playing marginal hands is to not get involved with them (and especially not to build a pot with them) OOP, because they become much harder to play.

On the flop, it's an easy fold. Nothing exciting here. You made a CB, he raised you (bluff or not), hand over.

[JustPlayingSmart]

Against the idiots on Party, you need to try to create as many opportunities for them to give you their stacks as possible. Thus, KJs and AJs should not be folded preflop in unraised pots.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Harrington says in early position when nobody has entered the pot: AJ suited use a mixture of half raises and half calls. But you say this is a clear fold pre-flop.

"With KJs in middle position I would play in all middle positions with a mixture of 40 percent calls and 60 percent raises"

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, both of Harrington's books are dangerous and the second one is just plain bad, IMO (the first one is great but can be read the wrong way a lot.) In any event, he's talking about really deep stacks and this doesn't have much to do with Party tournaments. I would overlimp the KJs and mix raises/calls with the AJs since the pot hasn't been opened yet.

Having said that, given you essentially have to be best a little under 50% of the time, I think that given the donk's likely range, Hand 1 is a call.

[ QUOTE ]
this a leak in your game

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant see that as a leak if you know when you need to get out of the hand postflop. If you dont know, its most certainly a leak that will cost you alot of chips during tournaments but I think Sam T knows when to get out of the hand postflop and thats why I wouldnt say this is a leak. I have no idea what I would have done with AJ off suit, probably call 40% and fold 60% but with AJ suited, im at least calling 100% of the time.

[2Fast2Furious]

agree - this is auto-limp early on - fold to any raise except for maybe mini

[lotus776]

agreed, a style you might consider is incredibly tight for the first 5 or 6 rounds and gradually loosening up, releasing many hands and not risking a big portion of your stack

[lotus776]

also, seriously try playing in more expensive tournaments where there are less idiots. Seriously, you're gonna have more idiots in $5 rebuys than in $20 tourneys. just something to keep in mind

Could it be that you're simply part of the party?
K J isn't exactly a big hand in late middle position.
throw it out and wait for another situation.

A J in early position, early in a tournament, at a full table? I'd throw it out at most tables (raise at tighter tables), and throw it out at almost all tables in low buy in, early stage tournaments. Exception....when you're rushing.
Mike

[mlagoo]

sometimes the advice given in these threads makes me sad

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
also, seriously try playing in more expensive tournaments where there are less idiots. Seriously, you're gonna have more idiots in $5 rebuys than in $20 tourneys. just something to keep in mind

[/ QUOTE ]

This is some of the worst advice I hear people give. If you cannot beat a certain buy in level of poker that don't move up!! It's true your variance will be higher when the donk level is higher, but your ROI should be much higher at those lower levels. And face it, if you can't make money off bad poker players, you're truly kidding yourself if you expect to make money off good ones.

-Rizen