A question to the good pushbotters

I hope I’m right in thinking that being a good pushbot is mainly down to the ability to correctly estimate your opponents calling ranges, so allowing you to estimate the EV of your possible push.

When single tabling you can pay attention to how they play. Make assumptions about calling ranges from they tightness and style of play or what they have already pushed or called with.

My question is if you are 8,10 or 12 tabling how can you get a handle on their pushing and calling ranges when you haven’t been watching the table closely?
Is “what would the average players calling range be at this buy-in” good enough?

[durron597]

Most of the time you can just assume your opponents won't call based on stack sizes. I actually had paint here, and I thought that my opponent was relatively loose, but this is still a clear push with any two.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB (t1760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t130)
Hero (t5525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5525 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Final Pot: t5825

[ChrisV]

Heh. I went and ran the ICM numbers on that. I wanted to see if the ICM would recommend a fold with AA.

It turns out that AA and KK are calls and QQ is an extremely marginal call, which feels about right to me.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. I went and ran the ICM numbers on that. I wanted to see if the ICM would recommend a fold with AA.

It turns out that AA and KK are calls and QQ is an extremely marginal call, which feels about right to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, and this was the next hand. I didn't post it originally because my hand is decent but I'm pushing 32o here also.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t1460)
BB (t585)
UTG (t130)
Hero (t5825)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5825 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t6275

[zambonidrivr]

play solid values at the begining. if you're lucky to have a big stack come bubble time, play accordingly. if you're not, hopefully you have not donked off your stack along the way and have retained enough FE where you can begin taking advantage of position and begin shoving your stack collecting blinds. i don't personally consider calling ranges of my opponents except at the $50+ as I see a lot of the same faces. what i do consider is my stack size relative to blinds, action prior to mine, and other stack sizes, and their potiential ranges. What's worked best for me is pushing any 2, and only calling with pairs higher than 8 and any high Ace. thats just me though. i am by no means the best here but i have been winning over the last year and over 5000 sng's.

[Degen]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time you can just assume your opponents won't call based on stack sizes. I actually had paint here, and I thought that my opponent was relatively loose, but this is still a clear push with any two.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB (t1760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t130)
Hero (t5525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5525 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Final Pot: t5825

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep thats always a clear push, but what about if the if the situation has changed to this:

BB (t3760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t1130)
Hero (t2525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2,J.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2525 (All-In).

If the BB is on a tight calling range this is 1.4% +EV but on a loose range it is very nagative.
So here an indication of calling range is very useful.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Yep thats always a clear push, but what about if the if the situation has changed to this:

BB (t3760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t1130)
Hero (t2525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2,J.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2525 (All-In).

If the BB is on a tight calling range this is 1.4% +EV but on a loose range it is very nagative.
So here an indication of calling range is very useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was 10-tabling I would probably fold this (but I don't 10-table /images/graemlins/wink.gif). This is the kind of spot that causes ROI to go up from playing fewer tables (by pushing against the right opponents), but you make that back in $/hr by having more tables open.

[ QUOTE ]
If I was 10-tabling I would probably fold this (but I don't 10-table ). This is the kind of spot that causes ROI to go up from playing fewer tables (by pushing against the right opponents), but you make that back in $/hr by having more tables open.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I’ve been wrestling with. When multitabling you have to pass on some push opportunities because you can't get the reads. But single tabling you can use your reads to get a calling range and so find more +EV situations.

I guess this is really what I was asking.
If there were a way to determine accurate calling ranges while multitabling you would not sacrifice so much ROI over a single table player.

[tigerite]

Well I use PA Hud just to give some kind of indication, I get it right the vast majority of the time, if they are loose and fishy then they will call with more over when they are tight.. there are other factors though, you just have to give it some thought really. It's not difficult to at least have a stab at a calling range. I probably miss out on some pushes because of this, but not many.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I use PA Hud just to give some kind of indication, I get it right the vast majority of the time, if they are loose and fishy then they will call with more over when they are tight.. there are other factors though, you just have to give it some thought really. It's not difficult to at least have a stab at a calling range. I probably miss out on some pushes because of this, but not many.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost exactly my approach.

[valenzuela]

its more of an isntinct thing at this point, I just push or fold. I dont do any major thinking( Im trough that phase)
Im naturlly wrong sometimes but on the 16s turbos that is forgiven by the long run.
I have more issues with pushing when theyre limpers, min-raises, pushes in front of me....I also play by instint in this spots but Im wrong so often...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I use PA Hud just to give some kind of indication, I get it right the vast majority of the time, if they are loose and fishy then they will call with more over when they are tight.. there are other factors though, you just have to give it some thought really. It's not difficult to at least have a stab at a calling range. I probably miss out on some pushes because of this, but not many.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost exactly my approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I have been experimenting with. My HUD only shows VPIP and pre-flop aggression at the moment, just to try and get a read on the ranges without paying attention.

[Gramps]

I think an ever-becoming more important skill is figuring out how the pushbots "think" (yes, that sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? (and like an oxymoran /images/graemlins/tongue.gif as well...)). Seeing how a certain player thinks, and watching where they open up their pushing standards (and where you should open up your calling/over-the-top-pushing standards) goes a long way to doing well in an SNG-world full of pushbots...

[tigerite]

I couldn't agree more. It also helps to have your luckbox plugged in when you get the read wrong, and they turn over TT when you have called them with something like A9s, expecting their hand to be much worse. Then again I do seem to get it right more often than not..

Sorry for whoever that was, but your range was surely higher than 99+, AT+ there.