A WAY more interesting hand to talk about

[skp]

From a Vince Lepore post on RGP. He observed Mason play this hand in the Bellagio 30-60 game. (BTW, I trust that neither Vince nor Mason mind that I am reposting the hand here...if they do, well, too late this time but I guess I'll know to get permission in the future)

A very loose, aggressive player on the button raised first in. The small blind folded. Mason held Js,6s in the bb and called.

The flop came Ah,Th,8s. Mason check-called.

The turn was a blank. Both players check.

The river was the 8s. Mason bets and the button folds.

Though the pot was a small one, this situation occurs so often that I think that understanding the thought process on this hand is way more important and interesting than trying to understand Mason's thought process on the KQ hand where he checked the turn.

[mikelow]

Was Vince bumped from 2+2?

And I would have folded preflop so I wouldn't have had the chance to bluff.

[bad beetz]

you cannot fold more than 1 in 5 times here on the flop, and the flop is going to miss you far far more times than that. That means you have to call with absolute zilch sometimes. Than you hope you pick up one of your undercards or, like Mason did, an opportunity to bluff.

[andyfox]

Very loose, aggressive will raise with a wide range of hands on the button, wider than the average player. And he's proably going to bet the flop, behind Mason's check, 100% of the time. Thus his flop-bet, even more than a typical player's, does not mean the flop helped him. Plus Mason has several backdoor draws.

This loose, aggressive player would certainly continue to bet the turn if the flop helped him when a blank hits on the turn. When he doesn't bet, he can't have much. Now the board pairs (I assume with a non-spade 8 of spades /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ); there's no way Mason's opponent can call Mason's bet.

[mike l.]

skp great post. it seems obvious that mason was looking to checkraise the turn regardless of what came, but full knowing that tons of cards would give him some sort of backdoor draw (and who knows if the J or 6 were outs too?)

the thing i hate about this hand is it's the loose/tricky sort of play i make all the time and i think it's a serious leak in my play, not a benefit. so seeing mason played this way worries and confuses me.

[elysium]

hi skp
this is kinda interesting. it looks like the button is SR. now interestingly, the J6s is a slight favorite here, so you would think that mason would reraise. the problem with that though is that usually, you will be betting the outs to get the fold. mason therefore needs to represent AK.

the flop misses terribly, however, it offers opportunities on the river should the maniac disclose that he is on a busted draw. now, notice that often, the best players check-call with hands like AQ or AJ here; and occasionally with a set when HU. mason doesn't have that of course, but there's no question that this opponent has seen this pattern and the results, and isn't too thrilled about the prospects. so mason check-calls. now everything depends on the maniac.

on the turn the maniac checks it down! this is a likely ins. straight draw. as long as the straight doesn't complete, mason has him.

the river produces the perfect card and it's over.

this play was first set up though by establishing a pattern that could later be used against the right opponent. notice that mason never bluffs! the river looks like a bluff, but it isn't! however, it would have been a bluff had the pattern of check-calling with the right hands on previous rounds not been established, and had there been some other representation other than AK at any point in the hand; since mason only represented AK and the opponent tells mason he didn't complete the ins.str. draw, failing to bet on the river would be an error, so betting then cannot be a bluff unless you consider the entire hand to be a bluff. notice though that the strategic moment in the hand takes place where you least expect it, on the pre-flop when mason doesn't raise his AK rep.

[Tommy Angelo]

"The river was the 8s. Mason bets and the button folds."

And then one of two things happened. Either Mason showed the bluff. Or he lied to someone later about what he had.

skp, Which was it?

Tommy

[zooey]

n/m

[skp]

Mike,

I could be wrong but I don't think that Mason was planning to checkraise on the turn.

I think he called the flop with the intention of folding on the turn if his opponent bet the turn (unless Mason picked up a Jack, 9 etc.) I think the flop "bluff-call" is made with a view to completing the bluff on the river if the turn gets checked through. The flop play represents chess style thinking i.e. thinking several moves ahead.

A helluva good play, IMO.

p.s. I would never make these plays in my game in Vancouver because stealing blinds and defending blinds is simply not all that important in my games which feature so many situations where a good player's edge is significant. I am not sure if your games frequently feature these late position steal raises vs. the big blind confronatations; if they do not, then I would suggest that you shun the "loose/tricky plays" that you say get you in trouble.

[skp]

I am not sure that I agree (assuming that I am understanding you right) that the preflop play was the key moment here. Also, I don't quite understand what you are saying about representing AK etc.

The key play here is the flop call which is done because:

a. His opponent is an odds-on favourite not to have a pair himself after the flop

b. Mason can pair up or get himself a nice draw on the turn

c. Mason's flop call may be enough to induce a check from his opponent on the turn which will then yield the way to a river bluff. The anticipated river bluff is set up by the flop "bluff-call".

[skp]

heh...I just realized that there are 2 eight of spades in this hand. Blame it on Vince....I just blindly wrote what he wrote.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

As usual, Vince didn't get this hand correct.

First I held J/forums/images/icons/spade.gif8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. The flop contained the 6/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, not the 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. I would not have called with J6s in this spot before the flop, and now on the flop I also have a three flush and a three straight as well as an overcard to the middle board card. Notice that a call here is consistent with our advice in the short handed section of HPFAP.

Best wishes,
Mason

[skp]

Let's assume that your hand and the flop was as Vince stated.

i.e. you have Js6s. Flop is AT8 with one spade

Assume further that you did choose to call preflop

Would you call on the flop based on the logic that:

1. You could catch a lot of cards on the turn that could give you a good draw or (give you a pair)

2. Your "bluff-call" on the flop may set up a bluff on the river.

Perhaps, that possibility is not very likely against a loose aggressive player who is likely to fire again on the turn.

...and please buy Vince a pencil and notebook....

...one other thing...given that you would fold Js6s in the bb here (I woudl call), I can't help but assume that there is a difference of opinion in the S&M camp as to defense of the bb. David would apparently call a UTG raiser and coldcaller if he has 7s3s in the bb. In fact, he says that it's a gimme call.

[elysium]

hi skp
skp, there is a lot going on with this hand. i really don't want to discuss why this opponent, an aggressive, will bet a small suited but not a draw to the nuts on broadway. or when the development of the hand began; i just ask that you look at how mason is stalking this opponent, and why this opponent can be skillfully stalked. notice that both mason and the opponent want to sudden reverse; the opponent with a completed broadway, and mason with a bluff when his opponent fails to complete. but also notice that this hand was played to bet out and pick up the pot when the opponent misses, so when mason bets with his bluff hand on the river, he is the favorite. but had mason raised pre-flop, then slowed down, and then sped up again, he appears not to have a big over pair or AK, but rather adjusting as his drawing odds change. being consistant by slow-playing is essential, and that consistant SP line representing big cards that do not vary in strength as the draw changes begins on the pre-flop; the pre-flop sets the tone. notice also that this is not a slow-play. mason is skillfully playing to win, not slow-play. notice also that mason's river bet is a bet with a bluffing hand, but is no bluff. why? because if mason didn't bet in this spot 100% of the time, it would be an error. it is not a bluff but rather a required bet. it is the final step in a series of steps, and is the result of those previous steps. so the over-all play is at such a high level that mason is the favorite; his opponent is the underdog. why? because this opponent has seen this play before. so it really is an extenuation from a previous hand. and also notice that mason cannot win from last position. why? because this is the ol' 'first position against the maniac on a big draw HU', or 'who will sudden reverse whom first?'; with a bluff, you must be first here. that is what is important. and it answers a lot of questions when you see that mason can only win from first position. this is one of the few occasions being first to act is an advantage; remember, maniac, weak drawing type hand, HU, first position, and like to have two broadway cards on. ATX on board is great.

[DanZ]

The 2 situaitona sre totally different. Im one situation, you have 2 "live" suited cards, and are getting 5.5-1 to flop somethin against 2 players who usually have 2 broadway cards which aren't paired, and you will often have the odds to chase a gutshot or middle pair, sometimes playing them for the best hand.

In the heads - up situation, though the raisers hand is worse, it is a ton harder to read, and you are not getting the odds to draw to much. It is also much more likely this opponent will take any pair to the river, as well as ace high, which he may or may not have. It is also much more likely this player will bet the turn again on a raggedy board, where an AK/AQ would often check behind on the turn in the early raise and 2 callers scenario.

Hope this helps.

Dan Z.

[skp]

I had thought of that and they are good points. But I would reckon that David would call with Js6s from the bb against a button openraise which still leaves a division of opinion in the S&M camp (not that there's anything wrong with the fact there is a difference of opinion.)