Isolation or not?

[Supern]

Limit Holdem, 10 player-table, No reads other than the limper.

Raises has been shown respect.
One loose aggresive guy (VPIP 30%, PFR 5%, AF 2) limped in from EP.
You are in MP2.
What do you do with the following hands:
99
88
66
ATs
AJ
AT
KQs
KJs
KQ

[Supern]

My take on this (r-aise, c-all, f-old):
99 - r
88 - c
66 - f
ATs - c
AJ - r
AT - f
KQs - r
KJs - c
KQ - c

[Aaron_]

[ QUOTE ]

AJ - r
AT - f


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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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[ QUOTE ]

AJ - r
AT - f


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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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OP: I addition to the confusion showed by Aaron_ on those two particular hands, there are several other wrong plays (e.g. 66 - f and ATs - c). I think you are waorrying too much about an EP limper and should be concerned more about an EP raiser. With all of that being said - I think you are over-analyzing pre-flop play here too much. SSHE says this perfectly on p.77. Concentrate on improving your post-flop play - I think this is more critical to your success.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

I'm raising everything but 66 and AT... And 30/5 isn't very loose or aggressive preflop, so why are we even concerned with isolating him? He's just another fish.

[Supern]

If you read the post you can see he's passive preflop and aggresive postflop.
(VPIP 30%, PFR 5%, AF 2)

And because he's passive preflop he's not raising with hands like AQ, AJ in EP probably. Hands that are dominating some of the hands I call or fold.

A guy who play 30% of his hands is loose.
Not very loose, but loose. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Supern]

AJ - r, AT - f

AT in middle position is not a good hand.
I think ATo is a marginal hand at a ten player game.
I usually only play it against a really loose player or first in from late position for a raise.

AJ is a bit better.

And yes I play tight.
I want an edge when I play. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
With all of that being said - I think you are over-analyzing pre-flop play here too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop play is VERY important.
And this question was about preflop play not postflop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Just want some input on hands for isolation preflop.

Agree that a raise with ATs is a good play as well.
And maybe even better than a call.

66 is a clear fold in my opinion with only one limper and
players to act behind. If someone raises it was a very bad limp.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop play is VERY important.
And this question was about preflop play not postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, pre-flop is play is important. My reason for that statement was that I found myself over-anylzing pre-flop too much and not concentrating on post-flop and I thought your post was indicative of this as well /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
66 is a clear fold in my opinion.

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I still disagree. Facing a raise from an EP player, yes, drop it. But if you can limp in with it for one bet it is definitely worth seeing the flop. Granted you are mostly looking for a set on the flop which you will only get 12% of the time. But, if your set holds up you should win big with it.

99 - R
88 - R
66 - C
ATs - R
AJ - R
AT - R
KQs - R
KJs - R/C (i cant decide)
KQ - R

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
My reason for that statement was that I found myself over-anylzing pre-flop too much and not concentrating on post-flop and I thought your post was indicative of this as well


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Hehe I hear you.
I analyze everything ALOT. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
But, if your set holds up you should win big with it.

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If you hit your set you may win a big pot, small pot or loose big. Sometimes you win a hand with 66 as well.

I think it's EV- to call with 66 with only one limper if you don't have loose passive players behind you. But it's probably quite close to EV 0.

ITH is saying you need 2 limpers to call with 66-55 in middle position.
SSHE is a bit too loose to even comment on here.

IMPORTANT information about conditions:
The table does have 3 players taking the flop on average.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But, if your set holds up you should win big with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you hit your set you may win a big pot, small pot or loose big. Sometimes you win a hand with 66 as well.

I think it's EV- to call with 66 with only one limper if you don't have loose passive players behind you. But it's probably quite close to EV 0.

ITH is saying you need 2 limpers to call with 66-55 in middle position.
SSHE is a bit too loose to even comment on here.

IMPORTANT information about conditions:
The table does have 3 players taking the flop on average.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops, given this information...

66 - R

[Supern]

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oops, given this information...

66 - R

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Please enlighten me on how you think here.
Hopefully I will learn something important. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lautzutao]

I raise every hand but 88 and 66.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise every hand but 88 and 66.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, thank you. I think a lot of people are vastly underestimating both how wide a 30% hand range is and how powerful our position is.

[2+2 wannabe]

what limit is this? is 30 VP$IP that loose?

raise everything but 66 (88 is close either way but it's too good to just call here). 77 I will limp though.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
is 30 VP$IP that loose?

[/ QUOTE ]
A 30% VPIP without the top 5% of hands which villain would have raised:

88-55,ATs-A2s,KJs-K5s,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,AQo-A7o,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o

A lot of garbage in there.

[Supern]

Remember that even loose players probably fold more hands in EP.

In EP I think its more like:
TT-22,AJs-A2s,KQs-K9s,QJ-9s, JT-9s,T9-98s, AQo-A8o, KT+, QJ (still alot of trash though)
Raising with: AA-JJ, AK (about 5%)

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is 30 VP$IP that loose?

[/ QUOTE ]
A 30% VPIP without the top 5% of hands which villain would have raised:

88-55,ATs-A2s,KJs-K5s,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,AQo-A7o,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o

A lot of garbage in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry - I'm thinking 6max stats here

FWIW, I think a 5% PFR raises a lot less hands than the ones you've omitted from EP, probably AA-JJ, AKs+, AK only

edit: supern beat me to it /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Paxosmotic]

Edit : Oh, I see what you're saying. We can do that, yes.

[MrWookie47]

You see, they really don't, though. 75% or more of players you encounter are not positionally aware, or if they know that the button is good, they may not put it into practice much. A guy like this almost certainly isn't clued in enough to vary his holdings by position.

I raise all of these hands automatically except for 88 and 66. Whether or not I raise 88-66 depends on more specific reads about the table and the limper. Complete unknowns I'll limp 66, and I'll probably limp 88, too, but I won't be happy about it.

[shadow29]

I raise all of these but 66, which I limp.

Eights are too good and too close to Nines just to limp.

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
75% or more of players you encounter are not positionally aware

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean tight players as well? Maybe 75% of the loose aren't but most of the tight players probably are (VPIP -22%).

Where do you draw the line when you start thinking about the players position and what hand he can have in that position? -22% VPIP?
I know reads are the best to determine of course, but if you only have VPIP.

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise all of these but 66, which I limp.

Eights are too good and too close to Nines just to limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's quite obvious I'm not isolating enough. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Do you isolate with Axs, KJo, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs as well?

[lautzutao]

It's not as important as postflop play.

Not raising ATs is a crime.

You need to get this "isolate" word out of your poker vocabulary. You're not raising to isolate anyone in Small stakes. You're raising because meatbags are going to cold call you with J7o.

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to get this "isolate" word out of your poker vocabulary. You're not raising to isolate anyone in Small stakes. You're raising because meatbags are going to cold call you with J7o.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true at some tables. I am not talking about the loose tables here.
I am talking about tight tables against mostly decent players.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to get this "isolate" word out of your poker vocabulary. You're not raising to isolate anyone in Small stakes. You're raising because meatbags are going to cold call you with J7o.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true at some tables. I am not talking about the loose tables here.
I am talking about tight tables against mostly decent players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to work on your table selection then.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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You need to get this "isolate" word out of your poker vocabulary. You're not raising to isolate anyone in Small stakes. You're raising because meatbags are going to cold call you with J7o.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true at some tables. I am not talking about the loose tables here.
I am talking about tight tables against mostly decent players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to work on your table selection then.

[/ QUOTE ]

false.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise all of these but 66, which I limp.

Eights are too good and too close to Nines just to limp.

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It's quite obvious I'm not isolating enough. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Do you isolate with Axs, KJo, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with shadow wrt the first set of hands you posted.

for this second set, it depends.

some things i consider are:
how bad is the EP the limper at postflop play.
how likely the bad opponents yet to act behind me are to call two cold and play passively.
how likely the good opponents yet to act behind me are to 3-bet me and play aggressively.

some hands, like Axs and KJo will like a small field.
some hands, like QJs, JTs will tolerate a larger field to an extent (ie, the suitedness/straight potential is there, but ideally i'd still like to be headsup.)

[lautzutao]

Why is that false at these limits? We shouldn't be raising to isolate people with a VPIP of 30.

[shadow29]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to get this "isolate" word out of your poker vocabulary. You're not raising to isolate anyone in Small stakes. You're raising because meatbags are going to cold call you with J7o.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true at some tables. I am not talking about the loose tables here.
I am talking about tight tables against mostly decent players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to work on your table selection then.

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false.

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As is the "fact" that you "[can't isolate at micro]".

[lautzutao]

Look, maybe I'm on cloud nine or something. But I don't want to isolate a 30 VPIP player. A maniac? Yeah, I'll try. An 80/0/.2 calling station? Sure thing.

If isolating that player is the best I can do, I'm gonna go hunt for another table.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that false at these limits? We shouldn't be raising to isolate people with a VPIP of 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

the whole thing is a poor line of thought for learning to play poker well. it has nothing to do with limits. it has nothing to do with limits or table selection.

the OP sets up a situation. that situation is, paraphrasing: relatively poor playing loose player in EP limps in, relatively tight playing people otherwise at the table. now, this situation, where you have tight tending players yet to act behind you, and a loose player limping ahead of you is the textbook perfect example of a situation where one SHOULD be thinking about isolation plays, about the meaning of resistance to an isolation play (ie. we get 3-bet), and about the situation specific strength of one's starting hand.

on the other hand, had the OP said, "typical loose passive table, one EP limper to me in MP." then we typically start to think about making value raises as opposed to isolation raises (because clearly the likelyhood of getting heads up is much less when people are willing to call multiple bets cold)

it's all about accurately noting table conditions and applying action to them. it's also to a certain degree about perspective, because to me, these types of situations (playing at tables where i can regularly get heads up versus a bad player with position) are regularly looked down upon by microlimit players, as if having multiple players to the flop is the only indicator of profitability. on the other hand, without learning these types of plays at ML tables i'd have gotten eaten alive at higher limits, where these situations are tantamount to minting money. selecting oneself away from tables like this is not always optimal for learning.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that false at these limits? We shouldn't be raising to isolate people with a VPIP of 30.

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sorry, i didn't realize the second part was a statement.

if someone has a vpip of 30 over a believable number of hands they are not good at the poker. i do isolate them if i can.

clearly, sure, i'd rather they were 80/0 players...but i'd take a predictable 30/5 player seated to my right any day.

[lautzutao]

I'll say it again. 30Vpip isn't "loose" at the limits we play at. I understand that it's critical to play this way to move up in limits. But reading all of Supern's repsonses in this thread, I think he needs to be working on different skill sets that will improve his profitabilitly.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again. 30Vpip isn't "loose" at the limits we play at. I understand that it's critical to play this way to move up in limits. But reading all of Supern's repsonses in this thread, I think he needs to be working on different skill sets that will improve his profitabilitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

30% vpip is loose. It has nothing to do with "the limits we play at". That vpip number refers to a specified set of starting hands. If you write out an approximation of this particular villian's set of starting hands, as Pax did in his earlier post, you will see that a vpip of 30% is what it is. Whether you call that "loose" or "tight" is irrelevant, except that the vast majority of the poker world refers to such players as "loose". Is it as loose as 40% or 50%? No, obviously not. Are there looser players in existence at .5/1 and at 10/20? Yes.

One of the reasons I'm harping on this (no I'm not actively trying to be a dick) is that when I was learning, I, like you, searched for the really loose players and profited from them. I moved up. Life is good. Now, sure enough the players are tighter in general, but I still find myself attacking the weakest players at the table. (and usually I find I am the one being attacked, since I suck) What was once the 80%vpip fish that I attacked is now a 30% vpip fish. Now when I go and play lower limits I attack all of them. And life is even better.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again. 30Vpip isn't "loose" at the limits we play at. I understand that it's critical to play this way to move up in limits. But reading all of Supern's repsonses in this thread, I think he needs to be working on different skill sets that will improve his profitabilitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be a [censored] either, but I'm trying to help Supern out, not make broad sweeping claims on where Micros as a whole should be. Reading Supern's other posts in this thread tells me that maybe he's trying to run before he can walk. Maybe I'm incorrect, I don't know...

I'll leave it at that.

[Supern]

[ QUOTE ]
Reading Supern's other posts in this thread tells me that maybe he's trying to run before he can walk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for you concern but I'm quite good. /images/graemlins/cool.gif
Tiltaholic has understood what I was asking about.

[lautzutao]

fair enough/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Limit Holdem, 10 player-table, No reads other than the limper.

Raises has been shown respect.
One loose aggresive guy (VPIP 30%, PFR 5%, AF 2) limped in from EP.
You are in MP2.
What do you do with the following hands:
99 - r
88 - r
66 - r/c
ATs - r
AJ - r
AT - r
KQs - r
KJs - r
KQ - r


[/ QUOTE ]

[deception5]

Great posts tilt.