TPTK early in the PS $500k

[stevepa]

Third or fourth hand of the tournament, no one has really done anything so stacks are all around 2500 and I have basically no reads. Preflop seems pretty normal. I think the flop, turn and river decisions are all fairly interesting so I'll start with the flop...

Button (HERO) 2500
SB 2500
BB 2500

Blinds (10/20)

Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif and raises to 60. SB and BB both call.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Pot(180)

SB bets 180, BB folds, Hero...?

I'll post the turn (and my flop action) after a couple replies. I'll probably just keep the one thread unless it gets bogged down.

Thanks,

Steve

[mlagoo]

I'm obviously not folding on this flop until I see a lot more action, so there's two lines that I'd take: 1) the gamblooor option, or 2) the safe/aggressive option.

with 1) i'm calling, intending to raise any turn bet (even a K or Q turn). I think this gets the most value out of bluffs, mid-pocket pairs, middle pair, etc.

with 2) i'm raising here, hoping to take it down because i'm not dying to see a K/Q/T/8 turn. I'd probably raise it to somewhere around 500.

I sort of mix it up with these lines.

Oh and if I raise and get reraised on the flop, I'm almost always flat-calling and calling a turn push.

Someone should feel perfectly willing to come along and tell me these lines are terrible. I'm used to playing in PP tourneys, which have much shallower stacks and less room to manuever. That probably changes the dynamic a bit. But in the tourneys I play, with no reraise preflop, I can't see not getting broke here (or doubling up).

I'd probably raise, the sb is probably just trying to steal a quick pot, if he 3bets you can safely fold.

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise, the sb is probably just trying to steal a quick pot, if he 3bets you can safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't this win the least when ahead, lose the most when behind? Although it doesn't allow him to draw out on you and prevents later difficult decisions. If he's stealing, how many outs/what kind of hand do you think he has? What if he calls? What do you do on the turn?

Thanks,

Steve

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone should feel perfectly willing to come along and tell me these lines are terrible. I'm used to playing in PP tourneys, which have much shallower stacks and less room to manuever. That probably changes the dynamic a bit. But in the tourneys I play, with no reraise preflop, I can't see not getting broke here (or doubling up).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I feel too. I've never played NL cash games so I don't really have a clue how to play such a deep stack...

Steve

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm obviously not folding on this flop until I see a lot more action, so there's two lines that I'd take: 1) the gamblooor option, or 2) the safe/aggressive option.

with 1) i'm calling, intending to raise any turn bet (even a K or Q turn). I think this gets the most value out of bluffs, mid-pocket pairs, middle pair, etc.

with 2) i'm raising here, hoping to take it down because i'm not dying to see a K/Q/T/8 turn. I'd probably raise it to somewhere around 500.

I sort of mix it up with these lines.

Oh and if I raise and get reraised on the flop, I'm almost always flat-calling and calling a turn push.

Someone should feel perfectly willing to come along and tell me these lines are terrible. I'm used to playing in PP tourneys, which have much shallower stacks and less room to manuever. That probably changes the dynamic a bit. But in the tourneys I play, with no reraise preflop, I can't see not getting broke here (or doubling up).



[/ QUOTE ]

1. Calling the flop is a nice option, but I can't see raising the turn. If he leads again on the turn and I still think I'm ahead I'll call, raising is basically committing my whole stack on a pretty meh hand, which pretty much never folds out something better.

2. This is generally my default line for several reasons. First I will often raise hands like AK/AQ in this spot because SBs range is fairly large, and even if he calls I'll follow up on the turn sometimes if I think I've got a good chance of folding him. Second, there are many players who will pay off the raise with a worse hand now like KJ/QJ/J10 and you can get the most out of him by raising here, checking the turn and value betting/calling the enduced bluff on the river, if the board stays safe. After the raise a small-mid value bet on the turn also works if its an ok card. The only down side is if he will blow you off the hand with a worse holding. but I can't see many players going nuts and 3-betting worse made hands. Occasionally I might 3 bet 109 against a good thinking opponent if I'm the blind, but you guys dont seem to have that history.

all in all, I like a raise.

[JupiterUWG]

if youre confident in your post-flop play in this semi-large buy-in tourney, I'd say flat call and let the hand play itself since you are in position

[ansky451]

Since I raise the SB with almost any 2, yeah I'm raising TPTK. Most of the players early in the 500k are donks, so I would also consider calling a 3-bet.

I don't like waiting for the turn to raise. If I'm just calling the flop, I'm doing that again on the turn, because I think that line looks especially strong, and I dont see you getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call. You also get a shitload too much $$ in the pot with just 1 pair, which he could easily be ahead of if he calls your turn bet. Especially if it is a queen, which is a very bad card. In general with big pot sized flop leads, I don't give credit to players for a set, even though that is sometimes the line I take with a set.

There's a lot of crummy turn cards, that 1) kill your action from worse hands, and 2) Improve your opponents hand. I like a raise here, and sure, if he folds you dont win a big pot, but I think if you take the safe route, and just call you have to continue to call down on the turn and river, and not raise at any point, unless maybe a 2 turns.

[stevepa]

Ok, so fairly mixed results between raising/calling the flop. I decided to call, mainly because I would hate to be 3-bet. Here's the turn (as well as the earlier action):

Third or fourth hand of the tournament, no one has really done anything so stacks are all around 2500 and I have basically no reads. Preflop seems pretty normal. I think the flop, turn and river decisions are all fairly interesting so I'll start with the flop...

Button (HERO) 2500
SB 2500
BB 2500

Blinds (10/20)

Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif and raises to 60. SB and BB both call.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Pot(180)

SB bets 180, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Pot (540)

SB bets 500, Hero...?

I'll post the river (and my turn action) after a couple replies. I'll probably just keep the one thread unless it gets bogged down.

Thanks,

Steve

[mlagoo]

nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

I mean, a beautiful card fell for us. I really don't think he leads this turn for a full pot AGAIN with a set -- he probably checks to let us try to "take it away." I think we're ahead, but I also think we get more chips in (and more information) by value betting the turn rather than the flop or the river.

Maybe I'm thinking all wrong =/

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]

2. This is generally my default line for several reasons. First I will often raise hands like AK/AQ in this spot because SBs range is fairly large, and even if he calls I'll follow up on the turn sometimes if I think I've got a good chance of folding him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would also raise AK/AQ in this spot a lot and feel that against most players, it's the correct play. For that reason, I probably should raise a hand like this. The problem I have with it is that in a vacuum, I don't think raising here is better than calling. Yes, there are people who will call down with a worse jack or some other garbage, but I think raising tends to make your opponent play pretty much perfectly against you (i.e. he folds worse hands, calls/raises better hands). So while raising is probably better for meta-game purposes, I don't like it here. First of all because I may not be playing with these people long. Secondly, online I don't like to assume that my opponents are watching me closely and taking notes on how I play. So basically, I guess I don't think the EV lost by raising instead of calling is made up by metagame purposes.

Steve

P.S. Also, bump for replies to turn action...:)

First of all, I would have raised to 400-450 the flop. Given you didn't do that :

No flush possibility, no str8 possibility (open ended at most), I think he may have 2 pairs J8 or 86 and he is value betting it.

If he has KJ or QJ, he his playing very strong, but since you called his bet he may think you have AK or AQ or a pp lower than a J, so he bets to take the pot. I don't think he has a set, too large a bet.

I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.

River to follow... obviously you called...

[stevepa]

Alright, I guess the turn wasn't interesting. I think Fireball's reply sums it up, all I can do is call. I've shown no strength whatsoever, so I can't fold and I'm either way ahead or way behind, so raising probably isn't good. I think the river is fairly interesting, hopefully I'll get some replies.

Third or fourth hand of the tournament, no one has really done anything so stacks are all around 2500 and I have basically no reads.

Button (HERO) 2500
SB 2500
BB 2500

Blinds (10/20)

Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif and raises to 60. SB and BB both call.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Pot(180)

SB bets 180, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Pot (540)

SB bets 500, Hero calls

River: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Pot (1540)

SB bets 1180, Hero...?

What kind of range of hands bets the pot (or close to it) on every street? Raising seems more than a little crazy so call/fold?

Thanks,

Steve

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to tell villian exactly what you have? If you only play 1 or 2 hands that way, then you're giving away too much information.

Anyway, on the flop calling and raising both have their merits. I raise for all the reasons MLG mentioned. You can basically either take down the pot when you're ahead or shutdown when you're not. Sucks, doesn't it? But you want to keep the pot small, which means taking it down while its small, or folding when it gets big.

You chose calling, fine. On the turn its pretty safe to fold, IMO. I honestly can't see raising the turn - what are you reasonably ahead of that will call your raise? On top of that, the only real raise you can make is all-in, which sucks. You either fold here, or call and call a river bet.

Calling sucks, i hate calling. I hate folding too. I love raising. You can't raise here though. Fold.

[mlagoo]

I think having got to this river (which I likely would not have gotten to), I can probably fold here. I just can't think of a hand we beat which fires three barrels after just calling preflop, and after we've showed SIGNIFICANT strength by raising preflop and smooth-calling on both postflop streets.

I don't think KJ-JT do it. I don't think TT-22 do it, sets included. I do think there's a possibility of a fast-played two pair. In fact I really can't put him on anything other than two pair here. Even a donk slows down with nothing after being called on both streets.

I mean, this board came perfect for you. This makes me mad =( Not sure what to do. Fold I guess.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to tell villian exactly what you have? If you only play 1 or 2 hands that way, then you're giving away too much information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I mean, to be fair, villains dont pay enough attention, and dont have enough information, at least during the early stages of these tournaments, for that to matter.


Listen, it's possible that the caliber of players in these tournaments is different enough that I shouldn't go broke with this hand -- I don't know, I don't play in them. But in a <$55 MTT, I'm going broke here everytime, and I don't think (or at least, have not been convinced) that's a leak.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets unless you think he has J2 or 22. That said, what are you hoping for on the river? Do you call if an A falls? If so, you should call when the 2 falls. Are you comfortable calling off pot-sized bets w/ 1 pair w/ 100BB+ stacks? I'm not. So I fold the turn (actually I raise the flop as the case may be).

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets

[/ QUOTE ]

just because this is the case doesn't mean we can't use new information to make a better decision. the fact that he maintained aggression on the river is a pretty good indicator that he has us beat and has a great hand (definitely a stronger indicator than his flop or his turn bet).

just saying, while it may be the case that we made a mistake by calling the turn, it doesn't mean we have to compound that by calling the river, given new information.

I was thinking about something I never do but... anyway tell me what you think.

If you don't fold - Min-raise (500 more) as if you have a monster and want to pot commit him for a river bet. If he calls, he should not lead the river so you can as well check, if he raises, he definitely have a monster and you can fold knowing you are beat.

What do you think?

[TomHimself]

raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets

[/ QUOTE ]

just because this is the case doesn't mean we can't use new information to make a better decision. the fact that he maintained aggression on the river is a pretty good indicator that he has us beat and has a great hand (definitely a stronger indicator than his flop or his turn bet).

just saying, while it may be the case that we made a mistake by calling the turn, it doesn't mean we have to compound that by calling the river, given new information.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, calling the river can't be good. but before you call the turn you should ask yourself "if he bets the pot again, can i call?" if not, what cards do you want to hit to be able to make a call. i honestly can't think of any. this is why i would fold the turn.

this also shows why it pays to be aggressive. if you raise the flop, you aren't put in this situation. the hand basically ends there.

and regarding you're comment about not folding TPTK, that might work for you in a $10-$50, but it is certainly a leak when you have 125BB and someone OOP firing pot-sized bets into you on an uncoordinated board.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously, the raise there would be a push because anything else is sort of absurd.

i was saying, having called the turn, we can still fold the river.


and, re: dmk, I guess what you are hoping when you call the turn is that the guy will slow the hell down. And he didn't. So we're clearly beat. Well, not clearly, but it certainly looks that way. But we did get one more piece of information before we had to make our decision. It just cost us too much.


If he 3-bets you on the flop, are you folding straight away? Or calling and folding to a turn bet?

What I'm suggesting with that question is that I wonder if the OPs line (assuming he folds the river) may have been the cheapest way away from this hand. Mine clearly wasn't =P.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about something I never do but... anyway tell me what you think.

If you don't fold - Min-raise (500 more) as if you have a monster and want to pot commit him for a river bet. If he calls, he should not lead the river so you can as well check, if he raises, he definitely have a monster and you can fold knowing you are beat.

What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes the same thing a flop raise does, but costs more. In short, ya, its a good idea, if you do it on the flop.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously, the raise there would be a push because anything else is sort of absurd.

i was saying, having called the turn, we can still fold the river.


and, re: dmk, I guess what you are hoping when you call the turn is that the guy will slow the hell down. And he didn't. So we're clearly beat. Well, not clearly, but it certainly looks that way. But we did get one more piece of information before we had to make our decision. It just cost us too much.


[/ QUOTE ]
i hear ya, i just feel like we got that information on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]

If he 3-bets you on the flop, are you folding straight away? Or calling and folding to a turn bet?


[/ QUOTE ]
folding
[ QUOTE ]

What I'm suggesting with that question is that I wonder if the OPs line (assuming he folds the river) may have been the cheapest way away from this hand. Mine clearly wasn't =P.

[/ QUOTE ]
i still think raising the flop is cheapest, since you get to actually win the hand sometimes.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree, calling the river can't be good. but before you call the turn you should ask yourself "if he bets the pot again, can i call?" if not, what cards do you want to hit to be able to make a call. i honestly can't think of any. this is why i would fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think it's reasonable to say, "he'll give up and either check the river or bet it small with QJ/JT/TT/etc but bet big against with a set." if you think that, calling the turn and folding the river makes perfect sense. once i call the turn, this is the line i'd probably take.

i'd also raise the flop. honestly, i'm not sure what i'd do against a 3-bet. i know folding is the "right" thing to do, but there are so many qualifiers for the big sunday tournaments. i guess (hope) i'd find a fold.

[stevepa]

Well, I played this hand like crap. Particularly the river. I just couldn't come up with a hand he would play like this. So I hoped he had KJ and is terrible and called expecting to see J8 or 88. He had K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ...? I'm still convinced the river call was awful and I like MLG and dmk's arguments for raising the flop.

Thanks to all those who replied,

Steve

A stone cold bluff?! Holy crap!

I think this shows how important it is to raise that flop!!

That is too funny. /images/graemlins/grin.gif