Weird river hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

edge

11-01-2005, 01:51 AM

5/10 6-handed. I just sat down recently, so less than 5 hands played, but Villain doesn't strike me as good based on his name and other things (I know, weak read). UTG limps, poster folds, I make it 60 with A/images/graemlins/club.gifA/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 1000 behind, folded to UTG (covers) who calls.

Flop K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif with 135 in the pot.

Villain checks, I bet 110, he makes it 275, I call.

Turn Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif with 685 in the pot.

Checked through.

River K/images/graemlins/heart.gif with 685 in the pot.

Villain bets 175. I have about 650 total left.

Clearly I'm not going to fold. Raise or call? If raise, how much?

AZK

11-01-2005, 02:09 AM

Why did you even bother betting this flop? check it! It's so much easier to win this way.

BobboFitos

11-01-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you even bother betting this flop? check it! It's so much easier to win this way.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree

11-01-2005, 02:10 AM

Call. If he does have a king he played it great. If he doesn't have a Q though its unlikely he's paying you off with a lower PP.

Allinlife

11-01-2005, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you even bother betting this flop? check it! It's so much easier to win this way.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree

[/ QUOTE ]
what else do you guys check this flop with after raising pre?

I understand that it does make the hand much easier to play, but since I c-bet with anything I rased preflop with and taking it down majority of the time, I feel that at times like this when I actaully do have something, I need to bet.

and how would this differ from checking dry A82 flop in position with KK/QQ after raising preflop?

AZK

11-01-2005, 02:15 AM

A lot of times when you check a flop like that people will call you down with ANYTHING:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|[color=#C00000]saw showdown

BB ($3299)
UTG ($2786)
UTG+1 ($3619)
UTG+2 ($3612)
MP1 ($2769)
MP2 ($2424)
MP3 ($631)
CO ($2114)
[color=#C00000]Hero ($2247)
[color=#C00000]SB ($1198)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
[color=#666666]7 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $70, SB (poster) calls $60, [color=#666666]1 fold.

Flop: ($160) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($160) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $100, SB calls $100.

River: ($360) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $200, SB calls $200.

Final Pot: $760

Results in white below: [color=#FFFFFF]
SB has 5h 5s (two pair, queens and fives).
Hero has Ad As (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $660.

TheWorstPlayer

11-01-2005, 02:25 AM

You missed out on him bluff check/raising the flop and then bluffing off his stack on the turn and river.

edge

11-01-2005, 02:29 AM

I don't check flops dawg. I can see how it works out nicely with AA, but I don't want to check behind with 77 and have no idea what's going on.

xorbie

11-01-2005, 02:30 AM

I would check this flop with almost any hand I raise PF.

TheWorstPlayer

11-01-2005, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't check flops dawg. I can see how it works out nicely with AA, but I don't want to check behind with 77 and have no idea what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you check with AK, AA, 77, QJ, etc. how is your situation any different on the turn than it would have been on, say, a Q82 flop or whatever?

etizzle

11-01-2005, 03:02 AM

shhhhh

edge

11-01-2005, 03:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would check this flop with almost any hand I raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then you lose the chance to win the hand when you totally missed with suited connectors or Broadways. In a vaccuum, checking the flop with AA is probably best, but I don't like to play specific hands differently than the rest.

xorbie

11-01-2005, 03:55 AM

edge

11-01-2005, 04:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why I lose that ability at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

As AZK pointed out, you're now going to be called down by any pocket pair. If you blast the flop and turn, most players will wither up and leave town with small PPs.

11-01-2005, 06:21 AM

Does anyone not push this river?

Hattifnatt

11-01-2005, 07:07 AM

I probably min-raise and fold to a push.

kagame

11-01-2005, 07:41 AM

i really dont like pushing

Kirkrrr

11-01-2005, 08:22 AM

If you push, what hand to you expect to call you? Pushing crossed my mind for about a second.

I'd just call. But I did see the same guy get quads three times tonight, so I might be slightly biased.

Kirk

AZK

11-01-2005, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't check flops dawg. I can see how it works out nicely with AA, but I don't want to check behind with 77 and have no idea what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have AA? WTF am i missing?

flawless_victory

11-01-2005, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't check flops dawg.

[/ QUOTE ]
OMG edge... are you kidding?
dont you want to get better? you think thats optimal?

flawless_victory

11-01-2005, 11:32 AM

id just call the river... looks like KQ or maybe something like 99.
if youre gonna raise, make it v small.

edge

11-01-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have AA? WTF am i missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying that although checking behind with AA is better than betting the flop with AA, I would also raise preflop with a variety of weaker hands including 77 and 54s. In those cases, I would prefer to bet the flop and set up a double- or triple-barrel bluff that will let me take it down a good amount of the time. KKx isn't really the best flop for this because Kings are pretty popular cards, but on a 33x flop I'll just keep firing away with AA or with any other hand. Maybe I'm getting something confused; for those of you who advocate checking, do you check behind on KKx flops specifically, or any paired flop?

TheWorstPlayer

11-01-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have AA? WTF am i missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying that although checking behind with AA is better than betting the flop with AA, I would also raise preflop with a variety of weaker hands including 77 and 54s. In those cases, I would prefer to bet the flop and set up a double- or triple-barrel bluff that will let me take it down a good amount of the time. KKx isn't really the best flop for this because Kings are pretty popular cards, but on a 33x flop I'll just keep firing away with AA or with any other hand. Maybe I'm getting something confused; for those of you who advocate checking, do you check behind on KKx flops specifically, or any paired flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally like to check behind often on any paired flop. If he didn't hit the flop hard, it is unlikely that the next card will make his hand. And if he did hit it hard, I'll be very happy I check behind. Particularly if the turn brings a miracle two outer for instance. But even if it doesn't, checking the flop helps in pot control and inducing bluffs.

BobboFitos

11-01-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would check this flop with almost any hand I raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then you lose the chance to win the hand when you totally missed with suited connectors or Broadways. In a vaccuum, checking the flop with AA is probably best, but I don't like to play specific hands differently than the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the turn as a bluff is allowed, too, with the hands you mentioned.

You know... There is ALOT to be said for mixing checks on the flop, esp. in this situation. If you check behind, he checks twice, take the pot. Or if he calls weakly you can revaluate putting in a river bluff. Honestree though, just because someone doesnt bluff the flop doesnt mean the pot is yet to be won.

coltrane

11-01-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't check flops dawg. I can see how it works out nicely with AA, but I don't want to check behind with 77 and have no idea what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you bet this flop every time, what do you do if you start to get checkraised on a flop like this every time?.....do you call every time?.....and then what if opponent makes a big bet on the turn every time?.....do you fold every time?.....or do you lose your stack every time you get outflopped?....

FWIW, doing anything every time is usually sub-optimal in NL.....not saying you HAVE to check this flop, but you don't HAVE to bet either....

edge

11-01-2005, 05:05 PM

I make a continuation bet close to 99% of the time against bad players heads-up. When I'm facing a good, tricky, aggressive player who will repeatedly test me and play back with air, I don't c-bet every flop. I also assume that unknown players are bad until proven otherwise.

Again, like AZK's hand shows, if I check the flop with nothing and then bet the turn and river, it's a lot harder to push someone off a pair than if I start off firing away. As a bonus, when I do have a huge hand, I can get all-in without too much difficult when I start on the flop.

PS. The new feature of posts deleting themselves if you hit back and then forward before actually sending it is stupid. I have lost about three already, in only a day or two.