$22 - Donkeys always draw

[pergesu]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t950)
UTG+1 (t725)
UTG+2 (t710)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t885)
MP3 (t205)
CO (t455)
Button (t1355)
Hero (t785)
BB (t975)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t45</font>, UTG calls t30, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t222.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, UTG calls t100, CO folds, Button calls t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t622.50) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t150</font>, Hero ??

On this flop I'm getting 5.2-1 on the call, I close the action, and I figure implied oddes are decent.

On the turn, the price is much better, but the threat of a check-raise exists, though it might be small. I would hate to call this and be raised.

[splashpot]

Also consider that with that many callers, it's possible that you're not the only one drawing. If someone is drawing to clubs, then 2 of your outs are gone. I don't know what the right play is.

[mlagoo]

yeesh, i think i just fold here, especially given the (potential) reverse implied odds of a 8c or 3c. also given the effect on my stack size when i just miss.

weird spot though. you just want to tell the guy to either bet more or less and quit f'ing with your head.

[ilya]

I pass as I probably only have 6 outs an' I'm not closing the action.

[AllinDan]

anyone else fold this preflop? if not, anyone else fold to the flop bet? Right now thats what I would do instantly, is this a leak? a serious leak?

Dan

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else fold this preflop? if not, anyone else fold to the flop bet? Right now thats what I would do instantly, is this a leak? a serious leak?

Dan

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure I would fold pf after the raise, and I would prob fold the flop as well but I am weak tight

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I pass as I probably only have 6 outs an' I'm not closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. and it's too much of my stack to get into a pissing contest.

I fold preflop. I'd fold on the flop too.

[tigerite]

I would complete for 5, but might well fold to the raise.

[MegaBet]

Easy preflop fold.

[Cactus Jack]

This is one of those hands that really bothers and confuses me. TOP says when you have the proper odds you must call. Even if that means you are dead meat if you miss?

Are pot odds like the "Pirate's Code" in Pirates of the Caribbean? More like guidelines?

I disagree that this hand should be a preflop fold, but I think I have to fold, now.

CJ

[Hendricks433]

I think Id fold on the flop cause someone is probally drawing to the flush which takes 2 outs so I fold. If I call on the flop then I probally call on the turn as well but I dont think thats a good play with the flush draw and callers. I also fold pf, its not even sooted which does matter to me when Im playing small suited connectors.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those hands that really bothers and confuses me. TOP says when you have the proper odds you must call. Even if that means you are dead meat if you miss?

[/ QUOTE ]

TOP assumes that you are playing cash games and are adequately banrolled and able to reload at the table. In that case, the Risk of Ruin (ROR) is minimal. In a tournament, you will sometimes not want to draw with proper odds if losing means you're out of the tournament. ROR comes into play with many decisions. ROR is why you push so often on the bubble, and why drawing with this hand is incorrect.

I fold 67 PF from the SB. 800 chips is not enough to play speculative hands for a raise in the worst position. If you feel the need to play 67, do so from the SB with lots of limpers when it is not raised (many will disagree with this), or limp in LP when there are many other limpers.

[durron597]

Preflop: Fine, especially since you are closing the action.
Flop: Fine, especially since you are closing the action.

I think both of these are clear.

Turn:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pass as I probably only have 6 outs an' I'm not closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. and it's too much of my stack to get into a pissing contest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold.

[stokken]

[ QUOTE ]
TOP assumes that you are playing cash games and are adequately banrolled and able to reload at the table. In that case, the Risk of Ruin (ROR) is minimal. In a tournament, you will sometimes not want to draw with proper odds if losing means you're out of the tournament. ROR comes into play with many decisions. ROR is why you push so often on the bubble, and why drawing with this hand is incorrect.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is such an excellent reply.

Pot odds relies on the assumption that a play bares a negative/positive outcome given that equal circumstances will occur on a frequency relative to speculate in the outcome. IN tournaments sng and mtt there are often to many variables that one can rely on "the long run" stack sizes, reads and ROR are far more important in this case. Here you would need a considerably larger stack and/or believe that your holecards are outs as well. Fold, IMo fold pf-based on the same argument

Regards Stokken

I think you lay this hand down preflop to avoid sticky situations like this so early on. Yes it is only 5 chips but i am folding on the flop everytime unless i am drawing to the straight and have some sort of other draw which is highly unlikley. folding preflop will limit you from wanting to chase your open ended straight draws and in other situations your crummy flush draws. you have no position. fold